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Comments
They gave Figure & Take on IOS & iPhone for nothing. They kept them updated for nothing. The only thing they did do, which is not a critasim. When Applle Goofed from IOS 7 to IOS 8, they took a while to update Rebirth. Just when I thought it would of become abandonware, it was updated(for nothing)........ Rebith still works good on IOS 9.2....... Now if they would release a Reason Mobile, that would be very nice. If it would come out, Reason would be some simular to TableTop........... But, there would be a form of ReWire, so you can record into Cubasis/MTS/Auria/Audio Bus. It's a real shame TableTop didn't implement this.
Indeed.
In fact, I explained how much I loved their products and the relevance of how their apps have been part of my IOS experience.
However, I feel a little let down by Propellerhead. I really didn't think I conveyed anything but that.> @MrNezumi said:
Yes.
Lack of IOS product development for serious musicians and producers and market aims of the company.
Quality was NEVER an issue with their products. I love Thor and Rebirth.
I entered iOS music with figure, and while the arpeggiator update was cool, I was really disappointed when they made the audio export more complicated (what was the point?)
I want to love Thor and Rebirth, but they have never consistently worked properly in the year I have owned my iPad Air 2.
Both apps have not been updated for quite a while and my attempts to inform the company have never been answered.
Now I can understand that apps cannot work forever with all the changes to iOS. I also understand that the apps do not claim compatibility and that sometimes issues arise. I do however believe that changes somewhere in the sales chain are needed so that buyers can make more informed choices.
@Fruitbat1919 it's poor support when a company doesn't respond to your requests for help with the problems you're experiencing. It has been my observation that there can often be many moving parts to iOS app setups so without specific information about what is not working for you, I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to the apps not consistently working properly. I've been able to use both apps on an iPad Air 2 on iOS 9.2.1. My usage and setup could be different than yours, but one of the benefits of the forum can be the ability to share your experiences and see if others have had similar experiences or more importantly if they've come up with solutions or viable work arounds. Ideally it'd be nice to have apps that just work and are intuitive and the degree to which apps meet these ideals is certainly an important consideration.
Perhaps in addition to being more niche markets, Propellerhead has determined that apps like Thor and Rebirth require more support resources which adds to their development and support costs leading to their decision to not invest more into them?
@Paul
I have discussed the issue I have with Thor on here a few times before. I've had it on and off my iPad so many times and tried it at each iOS update point. I leave it on now, but can't use it to jam with, as I know some times it will just crash with no rhyme or reason. Never come across an app quite like it.
Rebirth seems more stable, but I have no faith in it after a couple of crashes. Maybe due to my time with Thor.
I won't go into all the ins and outs again, as I have done before, just will leave it at apps I have absolutely no faith in.
@Fruitbat1919 I think the differences between your experiences and mine with the apps highlights how user expectations and usage cases can vary significantly whereas with more straightforward standalone type apps that are more low maintenance, there will be minimal variation in the user experience. Once again, the cost of creating a consistent user experience may be why Propellerhead has withdrawn from more complex standalone niche app development and invested in more broad based low maintenance social media apps?
Has anybody lately emailed Propellerhead about this? I have, & got a reply today(emailed them last Friday) I asked them about Figure having Link. They replied that it's in the pipeline, but they cannot give a date to when it will happen. I asked about Rebirth with link too, & a version of Reason on IOS. They couldn't comment at this time........ Who knows?...... Wait & see really...... But I always get a response from them. They haven't lied, but they take a while to sort things out. Even when Rebirth was broken on the change over from IOS 7 to IOS8....... Patience is a virtue......
I think one main misconception is that users think developers know ahead of time how their app will perform, which direction development and future updates are going to take and what users are going to do with it.
They don't. It's always just a more or less educated guess. Usually less.
And for developers it's very hard to communicate something like 'Hey, this thing didn't turn out as we wanted it to turn out. We're probably going to stop adding additional features because it turns out that not enough people want to buy it or don't really care about the things we care about.'
Especially in the early days of the app store (which there are still quite a few apps around from that time) developers didn't know ANYTHING about what's viable and what is not.
Strikes me that actually they could say exactly that on the App Store description. At least people would know.
Say what? That they don't know when the next update will be available? How would you formulate this? Without telling users to not buy something that works reasonably well and delivers exactly what the app description says, that is.
Sometimes I really wonder if users expect developers to be 100% open, fully committed, prescient and ready to self-flagellate for the price of 2.99 USD per download. And of course willing to provide free updates forever for the price of half a starbucks coffee.
99% of the decent or good iOS music apps do what their app description says. That's what you're buying. If you want professional grade software with a support contract that ensures 99.9999% reliability for the next 5 years I can recommend my former employer. They charge five figures and more for products with these specifications.
Say just what you said. Which boils down to were not making enough money off this app so don't expect much in the way of new features.
Self flagellation not required. But openness sounds good to me.
I think that's unreasonable. Devs might do this however as soon as Apple lists the dates of their planned obsolescence of their devices right above the 'buy' button.
When an app has bugs, especially bugs that make the app crash, the dev should fix those bugs. That's the cost of doing business. The customer is not interested in the dev making excuses and crying poverty because they have to put in more work, or the evil empire that is Apple take 30% of sales, regardless what the app retails for. The dev is fully aware of the risks right from the beginning when they made the agreement with Apple. So if the dev does not want to fix bugs in order to satisfy the customer and try to gain more sales for an app that works properly, then they should pull the app from the store or take a few college courses in business until they have a clue what it means to run a business.
Regarding rebirth, one year ago they said: we cant comment on this
Why? Im opened, be opened, too
Asked Kalle to step in, but he is probably in charge of something else now, and said Leo is the right guy to ask. Asked, no reply at all
I suggest that any up and coming music app manufacturer should endeavour to design, build and mass-produce a synth app based on pandas, and a sequencer app based on fruit.
@Rich303 if more developers took your advice, there would probably be fewer music apps available. There have been several apps I would have liked to have seen developed further, but the developers let me know they couldn't justify spending more time on them based upon app sales.
I would also add that sometimes it's not easy to figure out why an app doesn't perform as expected. It can be due to an interaction between apps in an audio chain, or changes to iOS or new iOS devices. It is difficult to test all of these combinations. Since iOS is updated every year and developers have to play catchup without an ability to gain additional revenue for these updates, and given the low cost of many apps to begin with; I'm surprised so many apps work as well as they do for as long as they do.
I tend to keep track of how well developers support their apps so I'm much more likely to buy new apps from those that have been consistent in this respect versus those who have no track record and avoid apps from developers I've found problematic. It isn't necessarily a case of when the app was updated last for me, but whether or not it still functions.
iOS is still not an easy platform to dev for, at the level of complexity you're all requesting. There are plugins in Auria from Fabfilter that simply eat CPU and memory - they're not badly written apps, the hardware and software are still just not ready for what the desktop can do.
Then add in the economics. For the cost of the Fabfilter limiter on the desktop, you can buy Auria Pro, the limitor, Pro Q and Pro C. There is not a lot of real economic impetus to do it. And for the most part, it's a rewrite, not a port, so the cost is very high.
Less apps may actually be a good thing. It differentiates quality from quantity. I'd rather have 10 solid and reliable apps than to have 30 that are gonna end up being binned as abandonware due to serious bugs and incompatiblity issues. Just like any other business, iOS apps are a competitve environment, and only the strong will survive. Those who can't survive may want to consider going into another field of work if they're not willing to succeed here.
With an ipad pro you have no cpu issue at all.
I'm not specifically getting at Propellerheads. I'm getting at the system of buyers information that we base our choices on.
Thor states compatibility with iOS 7 or above and iPad, yet through all the major changes since has not had an update. This I have seen with many apps, some that we know are probably not being updated, yet the words 'or above' are misleading after a time.
Yes the prices are cheap. Yes the whole software market is not taking everyone from rags to riches. App buying feels sometimes like a lottery due to poor information and communication. I must have wasted about £200 this year on apps that don't quite do the job with my iOS and iPad. I can name known bugs (known to Dev) that are not sorted in apps that otherwise would be wonderful.
Let's take a different example, Stroke Machine has a known bug that crashes the app when certain areas of the screen are touched. Many don't even know it's there, I presume due the user not changing sound settings as often as myself. I can make the app crash any time I want and often when I don't lol. I await it to be fixed and have done since before the last update in April 2015.
Don't get me wrong, it's not all moaning for the sake of, but if Devs are struggling to make their apps mostly reliable with current hardware within a certain period, it should be clear within the descriptions.
@Rich303 I don't think we'll see fewer apps anytime soon given how relatively easy it is for developers to setup shop on the App Store. I think developers will be leery about creating high quality apps requiring larger development costs until there is more power and stability in the iOS ecosystem. When these apps do come start to come out, they'll be priced accordingly. Perhaps in a couple of years when AU apps can have adequate resources allocated to them so that more sophisticated AU apps will be viable.
The strong survive by making decisions which will benefit them. Right now there's just not enough meat on the iOS music creation bone to attract developers who will give us much more than what we currently have. It's a rapidly changing technology still, with devices having a short usage life, where the money flow is driven by high volume sales of low maintenance apps with content IAP; until that changes, I don't anticipate iOS music apps to change much either.
Yeah I gotta agree with you. I've seen more of the less desireable apps than anything. It's gonna take a while before any progress is made, and I agree that Apple needs to make a lot of improvements. I don't know if I have much faith in Apple. They're more interested in the status quo that's bringing in the most profit. Due to planned obsolecence in hardware and iOS issues that effect everyone, I'm feeling releuctant to upgrade my iPad Mini 2 for an iPad Pro. I can get a lot more for $800 that won't end up becoming a door stopper. I'm sure many others feel the same way, from all I've seen so far.
There is one setting in iOS we might not be aware of that can be useful for helping the developers.
Some users just turn it off due to paranoia and it's regarding the Diagnostics & Usage. When the device has no connection to the internet the crashlogs are not shared with the developers, thus if everyone is 'quiet' the problems regarding the apps are not shared giving the developers a false feeling that their app is superdupercrashproof.
The settings can be found under Settings -> Privacy, Automatically Send and 'Share With App Developers'.
The information contained in the crashlogs are pretty clean of 'private/personal' information.
When I find a repeatable crashes I usually send an email to the developer instead of shouting out my frustrations on the interweb.
It's often the apps that are made as a 'hobby' that get the best support as it's not the only income for the developer. They are made out of passion and personal needs and shared with the rest of the community and as long as that kind of developer stays with a platform and sees the need for his/her app it will get updated.
As far as Figure and Take goes, they are to me purely marketing tools to encourage people to buy Reason.
I remember the old days when the first 1984 Macintosh came out with Pagemaker, which luckily hooked up to the then-new LaserWriter, which luckily had implemented graphics called PostScript. All three of those ingredients fell into place at the correct time, leading to a new market, leading to viable DTP (and I was in publishing prior to that and saw quite a few almost-viable starts into DTP that didn’t make it for one reason or another (primarily lack of promise of interchangeability – most early DTP solutions were closed proprietary dead-ends)).
I remember the old days when mobile phones were analogue, then moved over to the then-new GSM standard all over Europe and Australasia. Things were good, but about to be even gooder. In the GSM standard, tucked away, there was a provision for sending non-voice messages across the network during times that no voice traffic existed, that could occupy 160 characters. The 160 character limit was chosen because the average count of characters of a message sent on a postcard. Initially, nobody knew it existed except for a few nerds. Then you could only send within the same GSM network. Also, the networks didn’t really charge for it, as it was only used once or twice a year on average per person. All of a sudden the popularity skyrocketed like a volcano. Networks allowed cross network SMS and also figured out they could charge for them. People didn’t seem to mind (are they insane? Impossible to type out, and besides, email was free even then). The networks were soon making far more money than they ever suspected from SMS.
I think the situation is that a lot of technology is developed and released, hoping there’ll be some “killer application” (or “killer app” as we used to call it before “app” meant something you install from an app store). Sometimes there is, mostly there isn’t, but it’s entirely a lottery. In almost all cases, there was not much strategy, mostly luck, and timely tactical response to such.
All the mobile networks outbid each other in a Game Theory structured bid for 3G that saw many of them outreach themselves and have to sell out to other companies, all in the vain illusion that MMS and video calling would be the next big thing. After all, it’s like SMS but with video! That never worked out as a “killer app”, but cost all the networks severely.
Good insight.
Just some stories with no ending:
1.
When I bought Waldorf's attack, can't remember if it was the very first release neither when I bought bought it, it should be somewhere near 2 years ago, it simply couldn't work: there was a graphic glitch which made the GUI completely unresponsive(like a zoomed version without any controls on it). Then they fixed it but still had some serious crash issues on saving and loading presets.
2.
Few years ago I bought a boxed, for 500 euros on sale, version of NI Komplete 5. Now new Mac don't have a disc drive and I can't have any download version before I pay something else to upgrade to some more recent version.
3.
Few years ago I bought a non commercial license for Reaper up to version 3.99 of 50 euros and I'm still glad I supported cocoks. As like I'm glad to know I have, somewhere, a license for fl studio and lifetime upgrades; even I can't recall how much I paid for it since it was ten or more years ago and almost never used it.
4.
In 4 years producing music on iOS I've bought shitloads of music apps. Most of them were just brilliant, just a few were complete crap. And guess what? I think I've spent 1000 euros, which probably is a exaggerated, more probably around 500-800, on apps, iConnectMIDI2 and my sonic palette, my inspirational tools, my workflow has got so much better since I'm producing on iPad and many times I find myself using products which on desktop were just out of my price range. And yes: I'm against piracy, specially in music where ther are so many people in the industry, from musicians to software developers to netlabels, doing that, with some excellent results sometimes, for nothing. So I'll try to support em as much as I can instead of getting a cracked copy of the waves Mercury bundle just because someone said it is the best and find myself with hundreds of plugins I won't ever open since I didn't paid for them not needed.
5.
A Starbuck's coffee is overpriced.
6.
I'm glad to spend 20 bucks on single apps. Most of the times those 20 things are some of the better spent money. I really can't count how many apps I'm proud to have purchased.
7.
If you wanna play guitar you buy a guitar and probably a amp.
If you wanna play drums you buy a drum kit.
if you wanna play piano you buy a piano
Now check the prices
I don't think any of your desires stated above are unreasonable with the exception of expecting developers to clearly explain when they are struggling to make their apps reliable. Buyer beware seems to be the principle in action here as well as getting what you pay for. If developers currently make little or no profit from the apps they create, then they can't earn a living off of them, and fixing apps sinks lower on their to do list. If people have a lot of apps because they're relatively inexpensive, they may not be as concerned about how well they perform either as they haven't invested much in them. With low user and developer investment in apps, people who expect more out of their apps will be out of sync. Apple is all about volume sales and uses App Store reviews as their primary tool for getting developers to provide apps which meet the expectations of users. Developers frequently use sales or give aways to increase app ratings. Some developers may have very good intentions, get in over their head, have job issues, health problems etc. that lead to them not providing more support. Some developers do pull their apps, and do warn about update issues.
In addition, there are many reviews by users who haven't bothered to read the manual, or learn about the app's capabilities and limitations before posting negative reviews. These experiences may well be another reason why developers stop support as they believe there's not significant appreciation for what they've done so why continue?
My perception is that there are relatively few developers who are in a position to meet the higher expectations of their apps due to the economics and the skill required to provide such support.
I think you have $200 worth of apps that haven't met your expectations, so you might be better off revising your expectations of iOS music apps or seek out a different environment for music creation as I think the level of performance and support versus product description you'd like to see won't be happening on iOS until the technology has matured the way desktop/laptop markets did when the focus shifted to providing quality software rather than the benefits of the latest hardware and cheap iOS apps.
@mschenkel.it
I didn't want to quote the whole post in the phone, but to address point 2, wouldn't a $20 external CD/dvd drive do the trick?
The further I go the less apps I use. I think in the last month I've opened garageband, gadget, and rock or funk drum machine (for bass practice, not for creation). I will open auria again soon but haven't done so in the past month.
I just bought a synth on iOS, just a few bucks, looked promising, but it is not going to be very useful for me. I won't bother with a refund as it was inexpensive, but I'm going to just keep reminding myself I have everything I need for my current needs.
@mrufino1 yes it would, but since my main desktop is out of order since 2013 and my iMac(which is old enough to have a disk reader) isn't meant for music production I just don't mind and wait for better OS to come and some cross grade at some time, maybe.