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us-reinstates-death-penalty

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Comments

  • edited July 2019
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  • Max23 wrote: "we would never agree on this I guess"

    Yes, I think that is true. But I don't think you are 'wrong" in your position. And I don't think I am wrong either.

    One person thinks Cubasis is the best DAW. Another says Auria Pro. People can have different opinions about trivial things like DAWs and about serious things like how society should be run.

  • @robertreynolds said:

    @EyeOhEss said:

    @Simon said:
    I always liked the old saying "the public gets the government it deserves and deserves the government it gets".

    It guess it gets back to: he/she who does the hard work of lobbying for policy is more likely to get the outcome they desire.

    Lobbying is not having a whinge on the AudioBus forum. :-)

    I don’t think the saying ‘the public gets the government it deserves’ is quite so accurate these days, if it ever was? The playing field’s a total mess...

    People are manipulated and lied to. It’s unrealistic/unfair to expect every voter to be some kind of scholar on all policies that affect them and/or to forsee and understand the potential outcomes of such delicate and intricate decisions. Life’s too fast/hectic/overloaded for most people to have the time or energy to study all of these things to any real depth.. So we leave huge decisions to people that aren’t the best equipped people to make those decisions. Which = democracy..

    Curious what you think a better alternative is.

    I like the idea of sortition:
    https://www.sortitionfoundation.org/what_is_sortition

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  • Max23 wrote: " the only argument I can find pro execution is that it costs less money "

    I'm glad I didn't say that - I'd be shot down in flames :-)

  • edited July 2019
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  • Why stop at the death penalty? Governments should have no right to end anybody’s life.

    Please pass the whirled peas.

  • edited July 2019
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  • @Max23 said:

    @Hmtx said:
    Please pass the whirled peas.

    I dont like Hummus.

    It seems most of us have tucked into the hubris chips and no appetite left for the good stuff

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  • edited July 2019
    1. Congratulation on a civil discussion fellow forum members

    2. Who can see all the layers of the onion? While we debate an issue never to be ethically resolved, the same forces are trying to destroy the rights of women (strangely obverse death penalty) Kill the bad guy, save the fetus!

    3. Life imitates comic books. Authoritarianism says democracy doesn’t work in America. Charlie Lindbergh on steroids times Make America Great Again. Unfortunately, comic books have sobered up. The line between good and evil has thinned. Time to make comic books great again!

    4. Trump knew a good death penalty when he saw one. Get those five murderers back in the can. Fake exoneration!

    5. While the death penalty cannot be ethically resolved, a prison system incarcerating millions is out of sight of the common man. We can think and judge about life vs. death, but the manifestations of human suffering are too damn overwhelming to address. So we focus on .000001% of a bigger issue. A human life is precious, but ten million in Afghanistan? “Well, I don’t want to do that (but I could)”. Now there is reason fodder for a Nobel if I ever heard it!

    6.There are other rationales besides revenge for removing a cancerous cell from the societal organism... If you are always right, that is.

    1. Don’t count America out. That mistake has been made before. We are a land of immigrants. In twenty years whitey will no longer be a majority. Today’s immigrant is no different from my grandfather. They appreciate what they were able to leave behind. It is a perspective only they can have.

    When you look at a guy like Stephen Miller you see the face of immigration gone rotten. After all, as told by Miller’s uncle, Steve’s great grandfather escaped the pogroms, came to Amerikay in 1903 with eight bucks (a tidy sum back then when there was a free lunch... the 1903 equivalent of universal healthcare, except women were not allowed in bars) and created the financial (but obviously not moral) foundation for Steve’s tortured opinions by working his ass off and building a chain of supermarkets. We, of the tribe, are used to the self hating Jew, but hating our forefathers... that is an idea whose time has obviously come. Bravo, Steve. You and Jared are two good reasons to hate the Jews, why keep it all to yourself?

    1. Self murder is illegal, I believe. If the potential self murderer could be certain of a lethal injection perhaps there could be an exchange program. A kind of Charles Darnay, Henry Carton, exchange at the prison gate... or better, at some international border. I would immigrate for a painless end.

    2. I have personally abjured posting political threads, but, as always, IMO, it has a place here in proportion. We love iOS because we are human beings... and human beings.... well, they do get cranky now and again. Don’t see any reason why the whole musician can’t be represented here so long as he/she is respectful.

    3. Have a great summer, guys!

  • edited July 2019

    LinearLineman wrote: " Congratulation on a civil discussion fellow forum members "

    It wasn't easy - those guys who don't agree with me are such assholes!

    Just kidding, just kidding... sorry, couldn't help myself. LOL. I'm a dick! :-)

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  • @Max23, Shiva, the sine wave....the indomitable brutality of human nature.... f this? Couldn't agree more!

  • edited July 2019

    Don't see any problems. The convicted people are already in death row but their sentences now seem to be really executed. Let's face it. New death sentences are becoming more scarce and are in decline in the US. But most important the USA is a democracy so it's the a decision of the people that are now in power. Also the sentences are excuted in a "humane" way.
    Also let's face it under Obama the death penalty was never officially abolished.

    And also let's not forget, the five men named by Barr Thursday, three are white, one is black, and one is Native American. So I don't see any race or gender issues that always come up when discussions turn political.

  • edited July 2019

    @Max23 “Absurd” ... interesting word choice.

    And @LinearLineman
    I agree it makes no sense for a certain segment of society to champion fetus right to live while supporting the death penalty and the American war machine.

    It should also make no sense for another certain segment of society to
    1. decry a government power to end the life of it’s own citizens while simultaneously
    2. championing a woman’s power to end the life of her own unborn...

    The power to execute termination of another human life should never be granted to anyone no matter what right they declare to have to do so.

    I think the point I’m trying to make is that the common “womens rights” perspective on abortion is actually very close to the perspective of those who believe in the death penalty...

  • @Max23 said:
    the only argument I can find pro execution is that it costs less money
    but thats a weird argument to use because its an ethical problem, not about $
    and I end up with a very long list of arguments that scream dont.

    Execution sentences often end up costing MORE than life sentences due to the legal costs involved in the protracted appeal process in those cases.

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  • edited July 2019

    Not-so-fun facts:

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/URLs_Cited/OT2016/16-5247/16-5247-2.pdf

    Racial disparities are a MAJOR problem in this area. Not only are people of color more likely to be executed, but so are folks whose victims are white.

  • Again, sortition. Solves the problem of discriminating against minorities, discriminating on socio-economical basis, the problem of getting reelected, seeking political power for profit, etc. So elegant. Worth checking out in my opinion.

  • DCJDCJ
    edited July 2019

    @Simon said:
    CracklePot wrote: "I haven’t seen many people convicted yet, but a few have been."

    More than a few. How many of Trump's campaign team/lawyers are behind bars... I've lost count.

    How many priests have gone to jail? Heaps. How many millions of $$$s has it cost the Catolic Church?

    How many powerful people in the entertainment industry have been busted? Again, heaps.

    My point was that the goalposts have moved in the last 10 years. Powerful people who knew they could get away with wrongdoings in the past now know that they night not.

    Sure, there may be lots of bad things still happening in offices and factories to people who are not famous celebrities or high profile politicians. But the bosses know that if legal action is taken against them they are in big trouble.

    Just wanted to clear this up.

    Trump advisers behind bars: 2
    Priests locked up: 0
    Millions lost by the Catholic Church: 0. But it did cost them billions, apparently.
    Powerful People in entertainment: I would only need two hands to count them.

  • I like how the death penalty really keeps the spirit of killing alive.

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  • edited July 2019

    @DCJ said:

    @Simon said:
    CracklePot wrote: "I haven’t seen many people convicted yet, but a few have been."

    More than a few. How many of Trump's campaign team/lawyers are behind bars... I've lost count.

    How many priests have gone to jail? Heaps. How many millions of $$$s has it cost the Catolic Church?

    How many powerful people in the entertainment industry have been busted? Again, heaps.

    My point was that the goalposts have moved in the last 10 years. Powerful people who knew they could get away with wrongdoings in the past now know that they night not.

    Sure, there may be lots of bad things still happening in offices and factories to people who are not famous celebrities or high profile politicians. But the bosses know that if legal action is taken against them they are in big trouble.

    Just wanted to clear this up.

    Trump advisers behind bars: 2
    Priests locked up: 0
    Millions lost by the Catholic Church: 0. But it did cost them billions, apparently.
    Powerful People in entertainment: I would only need two hands to count them.

    Moral relativism...sigh.

  • Try happyhardcore.

    @Max23 said:

    @chocobitz825 said:
    Maybe make a song about it?

    Im having trouble finding a sound that is annoying enough for that.

  • @greengrocer said:
    Don't see any problems. The convicted people are already in death row but their sentences now seem to be really executed. Let's face it. New death sentences are becoming more scarce and are in decline in the US. But most important the USA is an democracy so it's the a decision of the people that are now in power. Also the sentences are excuted in a "humane" way.
    Also let's face it under Obama the death penalty was never officially abolished.

    And also let's not forget, the five men named by Barr Thursday, three are white, one is black, and one is Native American. So I don't see any race or gender issues that always come up when discussions turn political.

    Ah now we’re talking. 😈😈😈

    Why did you bring up Obama again? Because he didn’t do what no other president before him would or could do? Not sure how that’s relevant but would love to hear more.

    And so Barr names five men to be executed and three are white and two are other and this proves what again? That race shouldn’t be an issue because three of the guys he named are white? Am I missing an important stat these five names represent?

  • @Simon said:
    espiegel123 wrote: "I repeat. Execution is guaranteed to result in the deaths of total innocents."

    Yes, you are correct.

    But only if execution is applied casually to a wide range of criminals.

    Remember, there are criminals who murder and admit to it. They don't deny it. They clearly are not innocents.

    The guy who murdered all those people in Vegas. He was in his room with a ton of guns and ammo. Clearly not an innocent.

    The guy who murders someone, is captured on CCTV doing the killing, and is covered in blood and DNA and tries to escape chased by police cars. Clearly not an innocent.

    They guy who posts on FaceBook that he is going to kill his classmates at school and then goes on a rampage with automatic weapons... clearly not an innocent.

    It comes down to how the law is applied.

    You could argue that we should never put anyone in prison at all because "it might result in the incarceration of total innocents". They might spend years or decades in jail before someone discovers they are innocent. Their innocence might never be discovered. But we do put people in jail after we are sure they are guilty.

    Same with the death penalty. In the types of cases I have mentioned above there would be no doubt that those criminals are guilty. The only exemption for them would be if it could be proved that they were mentally ill to a degree that they didn't know what they were doing. For example, perhaps the FaceBook guy is totally mental and should be put in a mental hospital, not jail or death row.

    Our priority in serious, violent crime should be the support of victims not the rights of the criminal.

    If you read criminal history, you will know that coerced confessions are an ongoing essentially unsolvable problem.

    Even in very recent history.

    So, the argument for only executing people that are REALLY guilty is an argument driven by a wish.

    Nothing is improved by executing people. If revenge gives people momentary satisfaction that is not a lust we should try to satisfy.

    Nothing restores a murderer's victims. Or the wrong they did.

    When the State sanctions execution, it sends a message to individuals that murder CAN re-dress a wrong.

    We need to get over the notion that satisfying vengeful feelings is somehow a good thing.

  • ...> @espiegel123 said:

    @Simon said:
    espiegel123 wrote: "I repeat. Execution is guaranteed to result in the deaths of total innocents."

    Yes, you are correct.

    But only if execution is applied casually to a wide range of criminals.

    Remember, there are criminals who murder and admit to it. They don't deny it. They clearly are not innocents.

    The guy who murdered all those people in Vegas. He was in his room with a ton of guns and ammo. Clearly not an innocent.

    The guy who murders someone, is captured on CCTV doing the killing, and is covered in blood and DNA and tries to escape chased by police cars. Clearly not an innocent.

    They guy who posts on FaceBook that he is going to kill his classmates at school and then goes on a rampage with automatic weapons... clearly not an innocent.

    It comes down to how the law is applied.

    You could argue that we should never put anyone in prison at all because "it might result in the incarceration of total innocents". They might spend years or decades in jail before someone discovers they are innocent. Their innocence might never be discovered. But we do put people in jail after we are sure they are guilty.

    Same with the death penalty. In the types of cases I have mentioned above there would be no doubt that those criminals are guilty. The only exemption for them would be if it could be proved that they were mentally ill to a degree that they didn't know what they were doing. For example, perhaps the FaceBook guy is totally mental and should be put in a mental hospital, not jail or death row.

    Our priority in serious, violent crime should be the support of victims not the rights of the criminal.

    If you read criminal history, you will know that coerced confessions are an ongoing essentially unsolvable problem.

    Even in very recent history.

    So, the argument for only executing people that are REALLY guilty is an argument driven by a wish.

    Nothing is improved by executing people. If revenge gives people momentary satisfaction that is not a lust we should try to satisfy.

    Nothing restores a murderer's victims. Or the wrong they did.

    When the State sanctions execution, it sends a message to individuals that murder CAN re-dress a wrong.

    We need to get over the notion that satisfying vengeful feelings is somehow a good thing.

    Also, recent deep fakes of Scarlett Johansson show just how awesome and sexy faking evidence will get.

  • Why did you bring up Obama again? Because he didn’t do what no other president before him would or could do? Not sure how that’s relevant but would love to hear more.

    To add some clarity: President's can abolish the death penalty. That takes an act of congress. They can stop the Bureau of Prisons, which is under executive control and responsible for carrying out executions, from carrying them out. That was done 20 years ago. Trump/Barr reversed that policy, so now the executions are happening.

This discussion has been closed.