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  • Environment informs experience.
    Experience informs perspective.
    I don’t expect we’re the same.
    Except the same right to be respected.
    Justice is a privilege for many.
    For others never expected.
    A few are nourished and treasured.
    Many feared or neglected.
    Nobody cries when the innocent die for most atrocity happens outside of your reflection.

  • @legsmechanical said:

    Why did you bring up Obama again? Because he didn’t do what no other president before him would or could do? Not sure how that’s relevant but would love to hear more.

    To add some clarity: President's can abolish the death penalty. That takes an act of congress. They can stop the Bureau of Prisons, which is under executive control and responsible for carrying out executions, from carrying them out. That was done 20 years ago. Trump/Barr reversed that policy, so now the executions are happening.

    Worth noting that Trump has expressed the desire to execute 5 people who were completely innocent and continued to express that desire long after they were exonerated.

    No judicial system can guarantee that innocents won't be executed. That really should be the end of the story.

  • @legsmechanical said:

    Why did you bring up Obama again? Because he didn’t do what no other president before him would or could do? Not sure how that’s relevant but would love to hear more.

    To add some clarity: President's can abolish the death penalty. That takes an act of congress. They can stop the Bureau of Prisons, which is under executive control and responsible for carrying out executions, from carrying them out. That was done 20 years ago. Trump/Barr reversed that policy, so now the executions are happening.

    Great info!

    Still hopeful Mr. Grocer answers my questions. ;)

  • edited July 2019

    Deepfake video AND audio.... how it is done...

  • If we wanna execute a bunch of child murderers/traffickers I’m ok with that honestly.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Simon said:
    espiegel123 wrote: "I repeat. Execution is guaranteed to result in the deaths of total innocents."

    Yes, you are correct.

    But only if execution is applied casually to a wide range of criminals.

    Remember, there are criminals who murder and admit to it. They don't deny it. They clearly are not innocents.

    The guy who murdered all those people in Vegas. He was in his room with a ton of guns and ammo. Clearly not an innocent.

    The guy who murders someone, is captured on CCTV doing the killing, and is covered in blood and DNA and tries to escape chased by police cars. Clearly not an innocent.

    They guy who posts on FaceBook that he is going to kill his classmates at school and then goes on a rampage with automatic weapons... clearly not an innocent.

    It comes down to how the law is applied.

    You could argue that we should never put anyone in prison at all because "it might result in the incarceration of total innocents". They might spend years or decades in jail before someone discovers they are innocent. Their innocence might never be discovered. But we do put people in jail after we are sure they are guilty.

    Same with the death penalty. In the types of cases I have mentioned above there would be no doubt that those criminals are guilty. The only exemption for them would be if it could be proved that they were mentally ill to a degree that they didn't know what they were doing. For example, perhaps the FaceBook guy is totally mental and should be put in a mental hospital, not jail or death row.

    Our priority in serious, violent crime should be the support of victims not the rights of the criminal.

    If you read criminal history, you will know that coerced confessions are an ongoing essentially unsolvable problem.

    Even in very recent history.

    So, the argument for only executing people that are REALLY guilty is an argument driven by a wish.

    Nothing is improved by executing people. If revenge gives people momentary satisfaction that is not a lust we should try to satisfy.

    Nothing restores a murderer's victims. Or the wrong they did.

    When the State sanctions execution, it sends a message to individuals that murder CAN re-dress a wrong.

    We need to get over the notion that satisfying vengeful feelings is somehow a good thing.

    Exactly. We make laws that should count for everyone. If you start to make exceptions sense of justice will disappear and it will end in chaos. The only thing a democratic society can do is change laws and make them "better" in time.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    Deepfake video AND audio.... how it is done...

    And this is just it's infancy.

  • @Hmtx said:
    @Max23 “Absurd” ... interesting word choice.

    And @LinearLineman
    I agree it makes no sense for a certain segment of society to champion fetus right to live while supporting the death penalty and the American war machine.

    It should also make no sense for another certain segment of society to
    1. decry a government power to end the life of it’s own citizens while simultaneously
    2. championing a woman’s power to end the life of her own unborn...

    The power to execute termination of another human life should never be granted to anyone no matter what right they declare to have to do so.

    I think the point I’m trying to make is that the common “womens rights” perspective on abortion is actually very close to the perspective of those who believe in the death penalty...

    I agree, All life is precious.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    Deepfake video AND audio.... how it is done...

    The hole goes... deep

    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/01/business/pentagons-race-against-deepfakes/

  • @greengrocer : currently, we are not able to guarantee that innocent people won't be executed. We can't even begin to have a conversation about the fair application of punishment until that apparently insurmountable obstacle is removed.

    Currently, the U.S. judicial system is so poor with respect to application of justice, it is pretty hard for me to take seriously what-ifs based on the notion that there is a magic wand that would result in innocent people no longer being executed.

  • @DCJ said:

    @Simon said:
    CracklePot wrote: "I haven’t seen many people convicted yet, but a few have been."

    More than a few. How many of Trump's campaign team/lawyers are behind bars... I've lost count.

    How many priests have gone to jail? Heaps. How many millions of $$$s has it cost the Catolic Church?

    How many powerful people in the entertainment industry have been busted? Again, heaps.

    My point was that the goalposts have moved in the last 10 years. Powerful people who knew they could get away with wrongdoings in the past now know that they night not.

    Sure, there may be lots of bad things still happening in offices and factories to people who are not famous celebrities or high profile politicians. But the bosses know that if legal action is taken against them they are in big trouble.

    Just wanted to clear this up.

    Trump advisers behind bars: 2
    Priests locked up: 0
    Millions lost by the Catholic Church: 0. But it did cost them billions, apparently.
    Powerful People in entertainment: I would only need two hands to count them.

    You responded for me, and saved me having to look up some numbers.
    But, after reading through this thread, it seems that these are just numbers, and ‘many’ and ‘few’ are just opinions/POV.

  • @robertreynolds said:

    @Simon said:
    EyeOhEss wrote: "Politics is a joke. Democracy doesn’t work. "

    I hear people on both sides of politics say this but what I think they are really saying is "I am not happy with the outcome of politics/democracy so I declare that they are a joke/doesn't work".

    Politics and democracy are not meant to give the left or the right everything they want all the time. It would be crazy to expect that. But some people do.

    I agree

    I agree as well and would like to lend my support to those that do... I propose a compromise, the Left Wing should Trade an end to Fiscal Irresponsibility for the Right Wing's agreement to concede to and end the existence of Institutionalized Racism ... (I know what you're thinking, nice try koba but what's in the fine print right.... well of course the agreement would explicitly state that anyone whom so chooses would of course get to keep their non-Instutionalized racism I mean really we're not barbarians over here on the left, I mean how else would good god fearing salt of the earth type folk keep themselves warm at night otherwise)... the agreement would strictly state 'Institutionalized Racism Only' mmmmmkaaaaaaaaay

  • @kobamoto said:

    @robertreynolds said:

    @Simon said:
    EyeOhEss wrote: "Politics is a joke. Democracy doesn’t work. "

    I hear people on both sides of politics say this but what I think they are really saying is "I am not happy with the outcome of politics/democracy so I declare that they are a joke/doesn't work".

    Politics and democracy are not meant to give the left or the right everything they want all the time. It would be crazy to expect that. But some people do.

    I agree

    I agree as well and would like to lend my support to those that do... I propose a compromise, the Left Wing should Trade an end to Fiscal Irresponsibility for the Right Wing's agreement to concede to and end the existence of Institutionalized Racism ... (I know what you're thinking, nice try koba but what's in the fine print right.... well of course the agreement would explicitly state that anyone whom so chooses would of course get to keep their non-Instutionalized racism I mean really we're not barbarians over here on the left, I mean how else would good god fearing salt of the earth type folk keep themselves warm at night otherwise)... the agreement would strictly state 'Institutionalized Racism Only' mmmmmkaaaaaaaaay

    Right wing tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, illegal wars, corporate welfare...
    I don’t think the Left is necessarily the fiscally irresponsible group.

    But you got it right with the Right in regards to racism.

  • @kobamoto: it is factually incorr Ct that the right believes in fiscal responsibility. It is a historical fact that deficits over the last 50 or so years have risen under Republican administrations and shrunk under Democratic ones.

    It also strikes me as strange that institutionalized racism and injustice could be seen as something acceptable regardless of your spending priorities.

  • Damn what is happening on this forum?? A lot of you are out here making perfect sense. :o

  • Rush Limbaugh recently admitted on air that the whole concept of Republican fiscal responsibility was bogus. Fuggedabout it!

    And, poor us, if we lived for a few centuries we’d get a better picture of what’s going on here. But having to cram understanding human nature by observation and experience in three score and thirty.... impossible. We couldn’t even make it thru the Hundred Year’s War! A mind is a terrible thing to waste not making music. From history’s perspective no one gives a fuck about Ensign Touhy... who is Ensign Touhy? My point exactly.

  • c'mon guys in the book The Fine Art of Negotiations 101, it clearly states that one must not be concerned with individual truths but rather begin with a level playing field of False Equivalencies on start, in other words you can't suggest that the President of these United States is a Racist, bigoted, xenophobic, homophobic, errr traitor, you've got to start with stuff like the leftwing is soft on crime, the rightwing is hard on crime , or the leftwing spends too much money on welfare while the rightwing doesn't spend any money on welfare corporate or otherwise etc, it's gotta be true cause Preacher Richard Butler said so... no matter how far from the truth it is, or go with some of my personal favs like equating black lives matter to the kkk, or equating the issue of police brutality to Chicago gangbangers... there's lots to choose from the false equivalency dip so dive in but bring your own chips :D

  • its totally absurd. a bunch of guys trying to tell women what they can and cant do with their body. :D
    america has all these weird social issues I thought of resolved after 60s/70s.
    abortion, weapons, skin color, religious believe systems ...
    why is the wheel rolling down hill?

    f this. we are living in the future and it looks like the past.

    It has changed because the the right wing has learned how to control the conversation. Down is up and up is down. 🙁

  • @CracklePot said:

    @kobamoto said:

    @robertreynolds said:

    @Simon said:
    EyeOhEss wrote: "Politics is a joke. Democracy doesn’t work. "

    I hear people on both sides of politics say this but what I think they are really saying is "I am not happy with the outcome of politics/democracy so I declare that they are a joke/doesn't work".

    Politics and democracy are not meant to give the left or the right everything they want all the time. It would be crazy to expect that. But some people do.

    I agree

    I agree as well and would like to lend my support to those that do... I propose a compromise, the Left Wing should Trade an end to Fiscal Irresponsibility for the Right Wing's agreement to concede to and end the existence of Institutionalized Racism ... (I know what you're thinking, nice try koba but what's in the fine print right.... well of course the agreement would explicitly state that anyone whom so chooses would of course get to keep their non-Instutionalized racism I mean really we're not barbarians over here on the left, I mean how else would good god fearing salt of the earth type folk keep themselves warm at night otherwise)... the agreement would strictly state 'Institutionalized Racism Only' mmmmmkaaaaaaaaay

    Right wing tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, illegal wars, corporate welfare...
    I don’t think the Left is necessarily the fiscally irresponsible group.

    But you got it right with the Right in regards to racism.

    @CracklePot said:

    @kobamoto said:

    @robertreynolds said:

    @Simon said:
    EyeOhEss wrote: "Politics is a joke. Democracy doesn’t work. "

    I hear people on both sides of politics say this but what I think they are really saying is "I am not happy with the outcome of politics/democracy so I declare that they are a joke/doesn't work".

    Politics and democracy are not meant to give the left or the right everything they want all the time. It would be crazy to expect that. But some people do.

    I agree

    I agree as well and would like to lend my support to those that do... I propose a compromise, the Left Wing should Trade an end to Fiscal Irresponsibility for the Right Wing's agreement to concede to and end the existence of Institutionalized Racism ... (I know what you're thinking, nice try koba but what's in the fine print right.... well of course the agreement would explicitly state that anyone whom so chooses would of course get to keep their non-Instutionalized racism I mean really we're not barbarians over here on the left, I mean how else would good god fearing salt of the earth type folk keep themselves warm at night otherwise)... the agreement would strictly state 'Institutionalized Racism Only' mmmmmkaaaaaaaaay

    Right wing tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, illegal wars, corporate welfare...
    I don’t think the Left is necessarily the fiscally irresponsible group.

    But you got it right with the Right in regards to racism.

    This.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    Rush Limbaugh recently admitted on air that the whole concept of Republican fiscal ngernresponsibility was bogus. Fuggedabout it!

    And, poor us, if we lived for a few centuries we’d get a better picture of what’s going on here. But having to cram understanding human nature by observation and experience in three score and thirty.... impossible. We couldn’t even make it thru the Hundred Year’s War! A mind is a terrible thing to waste not making music. From history’s perspective no one gives a fuck about Ensign Touhy... who is Ensign Touhy? My point exactly.

    I haven't heard that buffoon in years, but I happened to catch him earlier in the week.
    I was delighted to hear that he is no longer able to produce that fake basso profundo "announcer" voice.
    The substance of his bloviating remains...insubstantial.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @kobamoto: it is factually incorr Ct that the right believes in fiscal responsibility. It is a historical fact that deficits over the last 50 or so years have risen under Republican administrations and shrunk under Democratic ones.

    It also strikes me as strange that institutionalized racism and injustice could be seen as something acceptable regardless of your spending priorities.

    But those facts contradict one of the right wing's favorite shibboleths!

  • @JeffChasteen said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @kobamoto: it is factually incorr Ct that the right believes in fiscal responsibility. It is a historical fact that deficits over the last 50 or so years have risen under Republican administrations and shrunk under Democratic ones.

    It also strikes me as strange that institutionalized racism and injustice could be seen as something acceptable regardless of your spending priorities.

    But those facts contradict one of the right wing's favorite shibboleths!

    :)

    It is interesting how a brief window of opportunity to radically benefit the extremely wealthy (and no one else) forced the GOP to reveal its actual agenda. I was surprised. I thought they'd savvily stick to the language of fiscal responsibility and middle-class values.

    But they realized that their voters will vote for them anyway because "fiscal responsibility" means something entirely different -- for reasons it is probably best not to get into.

  • edited July 2019

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @kobamoto: it is factually incorr Ct that the right believes in fiscal responsibility. It is a historical fact that deficits over the last 50 or so years have risen under Republican administrations and shrunk under Democratic ones.

    It also strikes me as strange that institutionalized racism and injustice could be seen as something acceptable regardless of your spending priorities.

    But those facts contradict one of the right wing's favorite shibboleths!

    Curse you, Jeff!
    How dare you make me learn something on this thread!
    :D

    Now that I know what a shibboleth is, you bet I am going to use that term.
    B)

  • It has changed because the the right wing has learned how to control the conversation. Down is up and up is down. 🙁

    And reinstating the death penalty for federal prisoners isn't about the prisoners, it's about stirring up Trump's opponents, and galvanising his "base". The sooner Trump is out of office and in prison the better. The trouble is that at the moment a) impeachment won't work - it'd get voted down in the Senate, and b) the alternative, MP, is arguably worse than Trump. So the US public have to wait until 2020 and a bunch of people in federal prisons become collateral damage.

  • @Simon said:
    espiegel123 wrote: "Having the death penalty encourages vengeance-thinking in a society."

    One might argue that putting a person in a maximum security prison for the rest of his life is more cruel than than death. It is a continious , daily torture for the criminal. More vengeful perhaps..?

    Yeah, but when you realise there’s been a miscarriage of justice you can at least let them out.

  • Game Of Thrones was such a disappointment this last season.

  • edited July 2019

    Matt_Fletcher_2000 wrote: " Yeah, but when you realise there’s been a miscarriage of justice you can at least let them out. "

    I agree.

    But what about a murderer like the N.Z. mosque guy who live streamed the killings. No doubt about who the murderer was in that case. There is footage of him doing the killings. And, now arrested, he says he did the right thing. He is not mentally unfit for trial and there is no doubt that he killed those innocent, elderly citizens.

    The guilty murderer gets to live. The innocent victims don't. Fair?

  • Only 1.5 more years!

    .........Until 4 more years!

  • DCJDCJ
    edited July 2019

    Ugh. Nothing is going to make this thread more useless and boring than to make it specifically about the president.

  • @Simon said:
    Matt_Fletcher_2000 wrote: " Yeah, but when you realise there’s been a miscarriage of justice you can at least let them out. "

    I agree.

    But what about a murderer like the N.Z. mosque guy who live streamed the killings. No doubt about who the murderer was in that case. There is footage of him doing the killings. And, now arrested, he says he did the right thing. He is not mentally unfit for trial and there is no doubt that he killed those innocent, elderly citizens.

    The guilty murderer gets to live. The innocent victims don't. Fair?

    Killing the murderer doesn't bring the victims back to life...and it encourages the notion of vengeance and retaliation.

    Life unfortunately is unfair. Executing murderers doesn't change that. I think people should dig deep and ask themselves why they would feel comforted by anyone's death.

    Many Americans seem to assume that everyone can relate to wanting to execute murderers when there are many countries where the population thinks of execution as barbaric.

This discussion has been closed.