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us-reinstates-death-penalty
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espiegel123 wrote: " Life unfortunately is unfair. "
It is when people get away with murder.
Is your definition of someone not “getting away with murder” having them in turn murdered?
DCJ asked: " Is your definition of someone not “getting away with murder” having them in turn murdered?"
Is your definition of fairness and justice allowing a murderer to live while their victims are killed and their family suffer forever knowing the killer is allowed to live? "
See, I can play word games too :-)
Lots of concern about murderers on this thread. Not so much about the victims and their families.
The unfairness of the victims' death isn't changed by executing the murderer.
The injustice of genocide isn't undone be executing its perpetrators.
People die young of natural causes. People have their lives upended by all sorts of things.
We may have an emotional response that makes us think that fairness can be restored but it can't.
espiegel123 wrote: "We may have an emotional response that makes us think that fairness can be restored but it can't."
Recently there was a TV documentary shown here (made by PBS I think) each episode showing a killer on death row. It interviewed the killer, their families and the families of the victims. Very upsetting program.
The constant comment by the familes of the victims was how upset they were about the injustice of their loved one being murdered by some animal who is allow to live.
But let's forget about their feelings. Let's worry about the murderer and play ideological logic games about how the death penalty doesn't bring people back to life.
Ass_Flaps_9000 wrote: " If there were no justice system. What would you do with the person who just murdered your loved one? "
Oh yes, good question.
No justice system to hide behind - come on, what would you do chaps? Invite the murderer around for tea?
@Simon I recognise your right to post your intelligently argued viewpoints as much as it pains me to read them. This is such a complex discussion that I cannot even begin to speak to the issues involved with any authority. I have a sense that the moral argument against the death penalty is becoming more the norm, however, and this gives me some comfort. I also hope that the poor victims of these crimes receive all possible supports outside of the premeditated killing of another human being.
gusgranite wrote: " This is such a complex discussion that I cannot even begin to speak to the issues involved with any authority. "
Same here.
Killing anyone, even mass murderers is awful. But when they kill innocent people we are faced with the question of how to deal with the situation. There is no solution where everyone wins and is happy with the outcome.
Do we go one way with severe punishment or the other way.
For me, the factor tipping me one way is that the killer chose to kill. The victim is the innocent party.
I also think there is a disconnect between an actual murder case and the feelings and needs of the real people involved and, on the other hand, an intellectual discussion by people like us who have not experienced that situation.
Latest Fat Donnie approval numbers (taken the day after Mueller's appearance in the House):
Approve: 41%
Disapprove: 57%
But you are guaranteed to execute some innocent people. No implementation of capital punishment has avoided that.
You also completely misrepresent what I am saying when you write:"let's forget about their feelings, etc..,"
I never ever even implied that. That was totally uncalled for.
If you have an argument to make, make it. But don't put words in my mouth...especially when they don't represent what I said or believe.
espiegel123 wrote: " You also completely misrepresent what I am saying when you write:"let's forget about their feelings, etc..,"
I think you know I was not referring to you personally.
The "let's" means "let us". And the "us" is society in general, not you personally.
espiegel123 wrote: " But you are guaranteed to execute some innocent people. "
I think I have said over and over that I only support the death penalty for those cases where there is no doubt of who the killer is.
I have given examples: the killers caught on camera murdering someone, the killers who boast on social media just before they kill, the killers who murder people in front of a heap of people at their school or workplace. There is no doubt in these types of cases.
Can you not understand what I am saying? Or do you think that you can never really be sure of who the killer is?
Ass_Flaps_9000 fantasied: " What if they were hypnotised my some sick bastard? "
Anyone in mind? Bonus points if you say Trump or Hilary.
Again, I have to agree. One thing no one is talking about is the deterrent factor of the death penalty. If someone knew might be sentenced to death for an unforgivable crime, would they still commit it?
@Max23, I get that this is labeled [OT], but maybe you know of a more appropriate place for posts like this? Regardless of what category it's listed under, we all see this, and I'd like to keep it on iOS and synths and music, and get a break from all that here. Thanks.
EyeOhEss wrote: "someone plotting or paying to have their spouse or business partner erased purely for greed etc."
I would not supoort the death penalty in some those cases, especially where there is doubt of guilt.
Mental illness: no death penalty. Mental hospital and professional care.
I don't like blacks so I shot up their chuch: death penalty
I don't like Muslims so I shot up the mosque: death penalty
I don't like my workmates so I shot up work: death penalty
I wanted to rob the bank and was preprared to kill anyone in my way: death penalty
I don't like cops so I shot the cop wearing a body camera who pulled me over in my car: death penalty
I don't like gays so I shot up their club: death penalty
I wanted to steal cash from the store so I killed anyone in my way: death penalty
I want to buy drugs so I kill people and steal their wallets: death penalty
Some criminals have a valid excuse like mental illness.
With many others it is no more than hate or greed.
I’m not playing word games. Neither are you to be honest. I’m literally asking you a question based on your literal words. And you could not answer mine, but I will answer yours.
My definition of fairness and justice is a humane punishment for crimes. That punishment should never be death. It’s interesting to think that a family suffers because their killer is allowed to live, and that they don’t suffer if he is dead. Or even that they suffer less. As many people have said before, they’re suffering never ends. Show me one case where it has? Show me once instance where a murderer’s death has made a family’s grief, remorse, pain, et al any better than it would have been by simply removing that person from society?
And how do you equate people here being against the death penalty with them being more sympathetic to murderers than victims? No one here is advocating for no punishment, just not death. They are not one and the same.
And why for the love of all things holy can’t you just use the quotes to repost like everyone else?!
Skip it. Don’t open. Mark as read. It’s only not a break from iOS if you open it and read it. You actually have a choice.
I don't buy the view that it is not the murderer's fault - blame his parents, blame his teachers, blame his schoolmates, blame the politicians, blame his work mates, blame his family, blame the President, blame the Easter Bunny, but goodness me, whatever you do, don't blame the perpetrator.
He killed the guy at the shop to rob the till but it's not his fault - society's to blame! Hogwash.
EyeOhEss wrote: " Let’s agree to disagree "
Yes, it seems we are on different sides of the fence.
When someone is found guilty of murder is doesn’t mean that they were always ‘guilty’, they too may have had their ‘innocence’ robbed of them at some point in their life. Then when they are murdered for their crime, what of the innocent victims of this action, family and loved ones.
knewspeak wrote: " Then when they are murdered for their crime, what of the innocent victims of this action, family and loved ones. "
You could also say "when you put them in a hell hole of a jail forever what of the innocent victims of this action, family and loved ones".
Again, the criminal has done damage to innocent people - their own family.
Interesting that nobody has mentioned the tens of millions of people who grow up with horrible, abusive and dangerous childhoods whi don't decide to become murderers. It seems a bad childhood doesn't automatically make you a murderer.
@Simon
Said “You could also say "when you put them in a hell hole of a jail forever what of the innocent victims of this action, family and loved ones".”
Indeed, but that’s what happens when you create that sort of ‘correctional’ system, it becomes a breeding ground for more criminality.
This argument is vast.
One thought I find inescapable is the in a country of the size the US of A the criminal justice system must be on an industrial scale not without its economic benefits. Just as slavery used to be. But that’s a rabbit hole.
I am on the whole against the death penalty. Not for religious reasons but mostly because I believe that more often than not, those on the receiving side got to that point for no fault of their own. When looking close enough one can easily discern than socio economic background is by far the biggest factor when it comes to committing crime. There’s no arguing this.
I’d be fairly willing to accept a death penalty in absolutely exceptional circumstances when there’s no shadow of a doubt that a person is beyond reform and their actions come from evilest of places. How can this be determined though?
Anyways, where am I going with this?
If/when death penalty is reintroduced we can rest assured that it won’t be used against the dr evil but will continued to be used against the most vulnerable in our society.
If we are to further evolve as a society we must look at the root of the problem which is (drum roll), you’ve guessed it, money distribution.
So yes, while we’re working out how to get the vital info out of dr. Evil to work out his status, let’s ponder on how can we fix a society where we deposit our elderly in ‘happy homes’, don’t know names of our neighbours and jump at each other’s throats on Internet forums. Furthermore, let’s look at our politicians and where they’re coming from to find indications of where they’re heading.