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The Greenwood Massacre Centennial

245678

Comments

  • @michael_m said:
    For anyone in the US or anyone with an interest in US history, I would recommend reading Howard Zinn’s ‘ A People's History of the United States’.

    Even if you don’t like Zinn or what he represents, this book is an attempt to state things factually as much as possible, and if nothing else, brings to light many parts of US history that are not commonly known.

    Thanks for the recommendation.
    I'll add that to my 'must read', reading list.

    In exchange here's a recommendation of mine,
    I had read a book to do with the ongoing conflict in regards
    to Israel and Palestine and it was quite a revelation.
    It was written by a Jew and an Arab called
    'The Fifty Years War : Israel and the Arabs'.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fifty-Years-War-Israel-Arabs/dp/0140268278

    Though it may not seem immediately relevant to
    the topic at hand the process and principles remain.
    To eventually have an unbiased opinion one
    must read and/or seek the biases of both sides or more.
    To facilitate a movement for a Peace this approach is necessary
    because both sides will always believe that they are right.

    When one approaches life like this one also
    eventually discovers that hatred doesn't discriminate.

  • https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fifty-Years-War-Israel-Arabs/dp/0140268278

    Thanks for the recommendation I’m a sucker for books like this and Zinn did a bang up job on the book. Another incredible read in the vein of ‘I Left my Heart at Wounded Knee’ is ‘In The spirit Of Crazy Horse’ by Peter Matthiessen.

  • @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

  • Howard Zinn’s ‘A People's History of the United States’.

    It exposes the incredible cruelty of conquering continents. Columbus was no shining example of a heroic country builder. His actions are much closer to an invading tyrant
    with no respect for human life.

    This colonial pattern was carried out across the world. Discovery, conquest and domination through genocide of the indigenous people.

    The people walking thousands of miles for jobs and safety in the US have more of a moral claim on the American continent as their ancestral homeland than any MAGA-T.

    But it takes a long view of history to use that approach to justice. Self-interest will out in these cases.

  • @McD said:
    Before anyone says it: "Why is this here on the forum?"

    I'd say, these historic injustices can inspire great music and art. And we should value anything that motivates someone to create as much as we value a review of a new app.

    That's my thinking. Uncomfortable, inconvinient truths are powerful motivations to move us to take action. And those actions can be musical too.

    Agreed.

  • Well ExAsperia99, my point is you can’t trust history and what is that saying the victors write history. But my other point is in The USA thanks to the constitution you have limited freedom to express your opinion so as with anything else you take the good and the bad and try and turn lemons into lemon merengue. I’ve heard a lot more shocking thinks from what other sources.

  • Watch it at your own risk! Sir Mcp.-come on ,Uncle Tom is a movie you might want to check out and Thomas Sowell’s deep knowledge of Black history. Didn’t realise how woke most of the comments are so far . greenie

  • edited June 2021

    Greenie, will do my best to check it out. I love sampling stuff so but I’m not woke. I’m just me. But reading educates the mind so when you encounter something that doesn’t add up you can navigate through it after the shell shock and some of the stuff Like I buried my heart at wounded knee or even Maus by art spiegelman it’s so sad and I can only digest so much at a time. Some times I have to put a book down for a bit because it upsets me that people can justify the behavior and implement it into a system. It just makes you think how can you treat someone like that and it makes you ask would I want to be treated like that?

    And if you haven’t read MAUS by Art Spiegelman you need to

  • edited June 2021

    @McD said:
    There's a conflict between the actual history and the core values of a country.

    The history that gets approved is one that services the needs of the people currently in power.

    The effort to tell the stories of US History is currently a point of political debate with left
    vs right using their power and influence to tell the story.

    Personally, I feel one side wants to tell an accurate story while the other wants to perpetuate
    a set of stories that give them comfort.

    How the Civil War happened and who the heroes are is an example. It makes me recall a playground game my schoolmates played in 1956. It was called Rebs or Yanks. At the time of the game we were all in Hawaii on a US Marine Core Base in Kaneohe on Oahu. I didn't understand how the game worked... a kid grabbed me by the T Shirt and asked "Reb or Yank"? His other hand was miming the holding of a knife. I thought... which are you because
    I never took a side. I grew up in California and we didn't take a role in that conflict. So, I had no connection to either Army. The kid looked at me and just moved on to find another one of the "other" that needed to be killed.

    The core of these conflicts come out of power and fear of losing it.

    The most sane society I can see in the modern world is Singapore that has very solid guidelines around diversity, egalitarian polices and providing opportunities for most citizens.

    If you hear some one pointing out the problems with another group, you'll see the roots of conflict. The only test that works for me is the substitution game: switch positions in any conflict and see if power is being leveraged and abused.

    Obviously, sweeping through a community and killing everyone you see is the most extreme example of power abuse... but it starts with someone making speeches about "loosing the country" or "taking it back" or "Making It Great Again". It's a call to the worst forms of political violence and should be a red flag that we need to preach tolerance and also be ready to defend egalitarian values that might actual work against our own benefit.

    For me this is agape... the love of mankind... all mankind. Many think this is God's job but I think its a shared responsibility. It can only work if the power is applied to insure the safety and welfare of the least of us.

    Does that sound like an "ism"? A belief system? Sure. I think that's how we help people see the greatest good... appeal to their sense of humanity and how were are all one. And yet we are each unique. We deserve to be who we truly are and live in peace.

    Bandaids are being ripped off some truly abhorrent US History... let it inform your sense of how we have so much work to do to make the world work for all.

    If you see or hear hate... take action to defect it towards a dialogue or to prevent violence. Be a witness for God in humanity. We are all his children.

    I use these themes but should disclose, I'm an atheist which is why I believe we must do the hard work and protect the least of us.

    Exactly said and eruditely written. You make me proud to be an ABF member, McD!

    I would only add that, as was said, fear is the basis of all anger and hatred. It is the fountainhead of conflict, aided and abetted by the Gang of greed and ego... the other two manifestations of fear. In that fear, however, is our evolutionary commonality...A human trait the haters will never admit to owning.

    Thus Watchmen may be more right on than Tolkien. Thanks, guys.

    As is said in Yiddish (oh yeah, and in German without the hilarity... where is @Max when we need him?), Gut Gezucht! (Actually, gut geredt in Yiddish... but that’s how my folks said it... and adds to the side splittingness... cause everyone just adopts Yiddish and mangles it however they want. Gut Gesprechen in German, I think)

  • wimwim
    edited June 2021

    Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee is such an incredibly good but difficult to endure book. I try every ten or so years to read it. The depths of men's inhumanity are important to revisit regularly as a warning that we all might not have been above such evil if our historical context was different.

    Roots is another favorite that does an especially good job at laying bare how all too easy it is to accept and institutionalize inhumanity. (Roots is representational historical fiction, but no less effective for that.)

    I'm not a big fan of what sometimes feels like it borders on empty virtue signaling these days**, but I do feel it's vital to remind myself of the cruelty that is potentially lurking just as much today as it ever has been. I just felt like tossing those two out there that are particularly effective at doing that. For me anyway.

    (** this is not a comment in relation to this thread.)

  • Well, while I suggest you might want to “check”out my information,SirMcp you say I “NEED”to read your info , Wokeism , is anyone here a fan of CRT?

  • @Greenie said:
    Watch it at your own risk! Sir Mcp.-come on ,Uncle Tom is a movie you might want to check out and Thomas Sowell’s deep knowledge of Black history. Didn’t realise how woke most of the comments are so far . greenie

    Thomas Sowell is a brilliant scholar.

  • edited June 2021

    @wim said:
    Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee is such an incredibly good but difficult to endure book. I try every ten or so years to read it. The depths of men's inhumanity are important to revisit regularly as a warning that we all might not have been above such evil if our historical context was different.

    I read this as teenager at secondary school and I couldn't look at
    movies or read stories about Cowboys and Indians again in the same way.

    Roots is another favorite that does an especially good job at laying bare how all too easy it is to accept and institutionalize inhumanity. (Roots is representational historical fiction, but no less effective for that.)

    With this one I watched the series and read the book as a child together with my family.
    We already knew the stories and the history, to see it depicted upon a screen
    made it even more horrifyingly real for us especially with our real life experiences
    of hatred here in London.

    I will add that though it is presented as historical fiction it was
    actually based upon a real life person, still that it is a moot point.
    We've heard thousands of stories similar to the story depicted in Roots.
    More often than not we don't watch TV series like this anymore because
    we are reminded of this side of history all the time.

    I'm not a big fan of what sometimes feels like it borders on empty virtue signaling these days**, but I do feel it's vital to remind myself of the cruelty that is potentially lurking just as much today as it ever has been. I just felt like tossing those two out there that are particularly effective at doing that. For me anyway.

    (** this is not a comment in relation to this thread.)

    Another difficult read in regards to history would be
    'The Black Jacobins' by C.L.R James
    It focuses upon the slaves who revolted in San Domingo
    which led to the creation Haiti when the slaves there
    were inspired by the French Revolution.

    What is interesting is how the author sets the scene because
    he not only describes what happened to the slaves on route to
    the Caribbean and the America's, he also discusses what
    happened to the Masters and that many of the Masters and their
    crew also suffered horribly and many perished in a very brutal
    and barbaric trade.
    No side came out of that trade unscathed.
    The author tried to have a balanced approach to a rather difficult
    subject and for the most part succeeded.

    Though it makes for difficult reading nonetheless
    I would recommend it in regards to empathy.
    It also has strong bearings in regards to the creation of the
    America's, the Caribbean and their ties with Europe and Africa.

  • edited June 2021

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

  • I share your "ism" McD.

    But while Singapore appears to be an island of successful stability in a turbulent region, it doesn't look too good close up. The state relies on constant and pervasive controls on personal behaviour and social conduct that are to me at least quite suffocating. A high price they've paid for stability ... a "guided democracy".
    https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/10/02/singapores-media-freedom/

    Very interesting discussion. Down here in Australia we're going through a similar historical reckoning - the dispossession and attempted extermination of the local indigenous peoples... confronting ugly truths buried in shallow graves.

    Necessary. Painful. Crushingly sad. Character-building.

  • @Soundscaper said:
    Very interesting discussion. Down here in Australia we're going through a similar historical reckoning - the dispossession and attempted extermination of the local indigenous peoples... confronting ugly truths buried in shallow graves.

    Necessary. Painful. Crushingly sad. Character-building.

    Australia was started as a penal colony I believe... where Britain moved it "criminals".
    Many criminals are often people without any other option to survive.

    There are no solutions to these tribal issues and power imbalances but the struggle for justice and mercy continues.

    This is typically when some over entitled asshole weighs in to state they didn't take any handouts from anyone and they worked hard for their net worth.

    As a white kid from California that used the state's educational institutions to get decent work in the computer business and get a financial boost from stock options while working for the right company I could be that asshole. My penalty was having to drive well over a million miles to do the work. So, I have a lot to answer for CO2 wise.

    I surfed in on the digital tsunami in the silicon valley and it was quite a ride.

  • @wim said:
    Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee is such an incredibly good but difficult to endure book. I try every ten or so years to read it. The depths of men's inhumanity are important to revisit regularly as a warning that we all might not have been above such evil if our historical context was different.

    Roots is another favorite that does an especially good job at laying bare how all too easy it is to accept and institutionalize inhumanity. (Roots is representational historical fiction, but no less effective for that.)

    I'm not a big fan of what sometimes feels like it borders on empty virtue signaling these days**, but I do feel it's vital to remind myself of the cruelty that is potentially lurking just as much today as it ever has been. I just felt like tossing those two out there that are particularly effective at doing that. For me anyway.

    (** this is not a comment in relation to this thread.)

  • As is said in Yiddish (oh yeah, and in German without the hilarity... where is @Max when we need him?), Gut Gezucht! (Actually, gut geredt in Yiddish... but that’s how my folks said it... and adds to the side splittingness... cause everyone just adopts Yiddish and mangles it however they want. Gut Gesprechen in German, I think)

    Gut gesprochen!

  • Because of the watchmen link with this thread there is another fictional series from Vertigo called Scalped by Jason Aaron. This is purely for enjoyment for those that are into Tarantino or Breaking Bad, Guy Ritchie etc.

    But it’s about a reservation and it takes elements from the era of Leonard Peltier but read at your own risk. It’s can be very graphic.

  • edited June 2021

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I’m not eager to engage further in this thread (but I will if I have to) because I don’t foresee a positive outcome. There are members who visit here who assume the worst of any person who may hold a contrary opinion (and to be clear, I’m not saying this applies to you, LL).

    All I’ll say is Officer Tatum (as he’s known) is an honorable person who is respected for his direct style and his character should not be attacked because he has voiced a differing opinion. It’s not fair to malign him or make assumptions about his own personal history, which is easy to find online.

  • edited June 2021

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the
    Tulsa Massacre the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agree black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why some black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

  • @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

  • edited June 2021

    @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    He's a police officer???
    Ahhhh....
    A police officer suddenly becomes a historical expert because he's a police officer.
    His research was a couple of videos and I'm going to stereotype here,
    the rhetoric he's repeating is the same rhetoric we all heard last year
    from his fellow police officers and the leading politician at that time.
    I think we all noticed their behaviour last year or have we all forgotten so quickly.
    I think there's a thread on the forum in that regards,
    plenty of media articles, a few marches here or there.
    Nothing fancy, some people got teargassed if I remember correctly,
    shot at with rubber bullets??? a couple of fatalities,
    a few missing women and quite a few hangings.

    Oh,... you didn't notice,... okay, cool.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    I'm not accusing him, anyone with any sense will hear the hatred.
    I'm not belittling him because if you actually read what I wrote
    I also stated that those are his beliefs as mine are mine.
    I'm not taking away his rights or freedoms for anything.

    It's also my right to challenge what he's saying.

    Some of what he has learnt is actually wrong but if it gives him comfort then so be it
    as long as he's not picking up a truncheon or weapon to kill someone because of his beliefs.

    I merely find it saddening.

    Also I'm old enough to have witnessed and experienced enough.

    Edit.

    I shall refrain from discussing this with you any further.
    You have your opinion and I have mine.
    We have both learnt from this and we should avoid any further discussion.

  • @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    It is our duty, as @McD eloquently put in his yearning for agape (which is spot on), to call out hatred. Again, calling human beings “dogs” is an attack on the dignity of the human person. To call that out is not a disrespect of the speaker, it is to point out his own disrespect, in this case, of his own people.

  • edited June 2021

    @Gravitas said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    He's a police officer???
    Ahhhh....
    A police officer suddenly becomes a historical expert because he's a police officer.
    His research was a couple of videos and I'm going to stereotype here,
    the rhetoric he's repeating is the same rhetoric we all heard last year
    from his fellow police officers and the leading politician at that time.
    I think we all noticed their behaviour last year or have we all forgotten so quickly.
    I think there's a thread on the forum in that regards,
    plenty of media articles, a few marches here or there.
    Nothing fancy, some people got teargassed if I remember correctly,
    shot at with rubber bullets??? a couple of fatalities,
    a few missing women and quite a few hangings.

    Oh,... you didn't notice,... okay, cool.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    I'm not accusing him, anyone with any sense will hear the hatred.
    I'm not belittling him because if you actually read what I wrote
    I also stated that those are his beliefs as mine are mine.
    I'm not taking away his rights or freedoms for anything.

    It's also my right to challenge what he's saying.

    Some of what he has learnt is actually wrong but if it gives him comfort then so be it
    as long as he's not picking up a truncheon or weapon to kill someone because of his beliefs.

    I merely find it saddening.

    Also I'm old enough to have witnessed and experienced enough.

    I won’t pretend to be able to read your mind, so I’ll ask you instead. Do you believe this man, Officer Tatum is a violent individual? If that’s what you’re saying, then why?

  • edited June 2021

    Gravitas hatred might be a little heavy handed. This is hatred but once again explore at your own risk and no I’m not affiliated with white power but this is hatred.

    The Turner Diaries is hatred just google it. The guy is a crappy writer so read a summary but look up the author and that is used as a loose term because it’s in my top ten worst fictional books of all time. But these groups are why the Southern Poverty Law Center exists. It’s scary seeing their influences on Ruby Ridge etc.

    And just to clarify things just because I have read Sol Alinsky doesn’t make me a communist or a member of Antifa. Right now where I live I have access to information.

  • edited June 2021

    @mjcouche said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    It is our duty, as @McD eloquently put in his yearning for agape (which is spot on), to call out hatred. Again, calling human beings “dogs” is an attack on the dignity of the human person. To call that out is not a disrespect of the speaker, it is to point out his own disrespect, in this case, of his own people.

    I judge him as an individual. Not as a member of a “people”. I find comments lumping this man in with an identity group very troubling. It diminishes him as an individual and treats him as if he has no right to an opinion. That is disrespectful.

    And here’s the “both sides” test applied to what you wrote: If this officer was ‘white’ would you have written the exact same thing about him?

  • @NeuM said:

    @mjcouche said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    It is our duty, as @McD eloquently put in his yearning for agape (which is spot on), to call out hatred. Again, calling human beings “dogs” is an attack on the dignity of the human person. To call that out is not a disrespect of the speaker, it is to point out his own disrespect, in this case, of his own people.

    I judge him as an individual. Not as a member of a “people”. I find comments lumping this man in with an identity group very troubling. It diminishes him as an individual and treats him as if he has no right to an opinion. That is disrespectful.

    And here’s the “both sides” test applied to what you wrote: If this officer was ‘white’ would you have written the exact same thing about him?

    On the contrary - this is not about lumping someone in with an identity group. Truth is the truth no matter who speaks it. If he was ‘white,’ it would still obtain that he is attacking the dignity of the human person. Words change reality.

  • Apart from NeuM ,it appears that most of you love a bit of the old Critical Race Theory

  • @mjcouche said:

    @NeuM said:

    @mjcouche said:

    @NeuM said:

    @Gravitas said:

    @LinearLineman said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:

    @SirMcp said:
    For those that mentioned the Watchmen tv series, kudos and it tied in to the comic with Hooded Justice. Just brilliant and no disrespect to Alan Moore because he has great disdain for adaptations and new material based on his creations.

    For an alternative opinion on the subject.

    Watch it at your own risk I just saw and still don’t know how to process it…like the time I read ‘A People’s History of the United States’.

    I’m not affiliated with the person who made the content so please don’t direct your complaints or praise at me. I don’t know what to think of it.

    Sickened. Such a sadness.

    “I watched a couple of videos about Tulsa.. I did a little research”. What a scholar. But he’s right about the origins of Tulsa. What he misses in his analysis is “measured response”. We’re fortunate he’s not the Secretary of State. The efforts of BLM may go astray, but in no way does it counter the Trail Of Tears blacks have endured. I’d say blacks have been pretty restrained in their responses.

    Agreed.

    This is a man who nitpicks history to serve his own sense of self. I guess he has not been a victim of voting or employment/education discrimination or police brutality.

    He says 96% of whites didn’t own slaves... I heard an interviewer talkin to a MAGA guy... he said his family difn’t own slaves... they couldn’t afford them! This fellow is self sabotaging his own best interests. “Logical” thinking is not always very logical. Wise people see the inconsistencies but also grasp, and even use it for the greater good. This is a microscopic thinker.

    I'm typing this whilst I'm listening.

    He doesn't realise that he already has been a victim of voting
    or employment or education or discrimination.
    It shows in his rhetoric, forgive me for saying this, especially his education.

    Oh my good gosh.

    Self hatred is so sad.

    He doesn't even realise that in the times of the Tulsa Massacre,
    the BLM movement didn't exist.

    I will agreed black men did hold slaves.
    It's a difficult thing to acknowledge along the lines of
    how African's sold slaves to the Europeans.

    I did the soundtrack for a documentary for
    PBS and the BBC in that regards back in the 90's
    when black historians in the Cote D'Ivorie
    stated that Africans sold Africans into slavery because
    some were prisoners of War and some were because of trade.
    Quite controversial at the time.
    Regardless that's anecdotal.

    Black slave ownership was a way to manage slaves.

    It provided a structure.

    Masters
    Slave masters benefited by having access to women, wealth and weapons.
    The slave masters could speak the same languages as the slaves.
    Slaves

    Now, I'm speaking as a black person.

    This is the main reason why black people fail.
    It's because individuals in searching for acceptance start
    to repeat the rhetoric that pleases their environment.

    This speaker is also hating upon his own people and culture.
    He is demonising his own people, he refers to them as dogs
    and something that many racists say which is b!!!!!!ds.
    I'm using the expletive, the speaker in this video used illegitimate,
    I've heard that phrase quite often here in the U.K.

    That's so pitiful.

    Wow.

    This is so sad.

    I will agree there are good people and bad people.
    No argument there.

    Still, it's his reality and his beliefs.
    Same as mine or anyone else.

    My problem is I hear hatred in his rhetoric.
    I don't hear love.

    What Officer Tatum said sounded pretty mild to me. So, his own research led to him to some conclusions which contradict what he was taught. That’s what a free person does. They review the available evidence and reach a conclusion. As a police officer, he may be more adept at investigating facts. Yes, it’s not unusual to debate historical events, especially events none of us are old enough to have been witness to, and the “facts” surrounding any historical event are subject to change if new facts are presented.

    From my point of view, it’s belittling to accuse him of “hating upon his own people and culture”. That just looks incredibly disrespectful of him as an individual.

    It is our duty, as @McD eloquently put in his yearning for agape (which is spot on), to call out hatred. Again, calling human beings “dogs” is an attack on the dignity of the human person. To call that out is not a disrespect of the speaker, it is to point out his own disrespect, in this case, of his own people.

    I judge him as an individual. Not as a member of a “people”. I find comments lumping this man in with an identity group very troubling. It diminishes him as an individual and treats him as if he has no right to an opinion. That is disrespectful.

    And here’s the “both sides” test applied to what you wrote: If this officer was ‘white’ would you have written the exact same thing about him?

    On the contrary - this is not about lumping someone in with an identity group. Truth is the truth no matter who speaks it. If he was ‘white,’ it would still obtain that he is attacking the dignity of the human person. Words change reality.

    It’s absolutely about lumping someone in with an identity group. He voiced his own opinion and the answer here was that he should act like “his people” (in so many words). That is very troubling.

This discussion has been closed.