The Greenwood Massacre Centennial

LinearLineman

Groucho was my favorite Marxist... Chico had a pic of Mussolini over his bed... but a fine pianospieler, Harpo had his tongue cut out... he knew too much, Zeppo could disappear in a crowd.... and... wait for it... ALL JEWS!

NeuM

@wim said:
So ... is the point here that being Marxist is somehow illegal? That one can't be anti-racism and Marxist at the same time? That all BLM'rs care only about political / economic ideology? That most of them do? That they're a threat to capitalism and democracy?

Sincere question. I'm absolutely anti-Marxist myself, but it never crossed my mind since back in the 60's, when I was a kid and my parents were seeing them hiding in the cupboard ready to knife us, that it was wrong to be one.

But, maybe that's not what you're saying. I'll admit to not super carefully reading all this thread.

In my humble opinion, Marxists, Socialists and Communists should be legally and constitutionally prohibited from serving in any capacity in the US Federal government, including in positions as mundane as office workers. The common goal of collectivists are the elimination of capitalism, individual property rights and consequently, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights and the establishment of Communist rule. Collectivism is irreconcilably opposed to individualism.

Further, Marxists, Socialists, Communists should be openly challenged everywhere their inhuman systems are propagandized. Unlike Marxist authoritarians in BLM and Antifa, I don’t see violence as offering any kind of solution.

LinearLineman

@NeuM, how about felons? If Trump is convicted he could still be re-elected. Maybe even from jail.
Stars and Stripes forever!

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:
The notion that BLM is a movement that promotes violence or racism is wrong. The vast majority of BLM supporters are opposed to racism in all its forms. It is certainly possible (even likely) that there are people in the movement that have racist sentiments but that doesn't say anything about the movement.

It also isn't a Marxist organization. Are there socialists and Marxists who participate? Probably. There are also socialists and Marxists in many churches, mosques and synagogues. That doesn't make any of those things Marxist.

One founder of BLM is a self-described “trained Marxist”… and that’s not even a quote taken out of context. The BLM site no longer lists “critical theory” as part of their movement (it did before), but critical theory is in fact, Marxism.

Patrice Cullors is a Marxist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrisse_Cullors

Alicia Garza supported socialist Bernie Sanders and is anti-capitalist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Garza

Quote from PolitiFact page about BLM’s founders:

_"We do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia, in particular, are trained organizers; we are trained Marxists. We are superversed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think what we really try to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many Black folks."

We didn’t find that Garza and Tometi have referred to themselves as Marxists. But the book publisher Penguin Random House has said Garza, an author, "describes herself as a queer social justice activist and Marxist."_

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/

And what did/do Marxists want anyway?

https://fee.org/articles/5-things-marx-wanted-to-abolish-besides-private-property/

One of the founders identifying as Marxist doesn't make the organization Marxist.

Also from the article you linked to: "Black Lives Matter has grown into a national anti-racism movement broadly supported by Americans, few of whom would identify themselves as Marxist."

So, no, per the source you yourself cited, BLM is not a Marxist organization.

As I said earlier, you will find Marxists active in many organizations (churches, etc) that doesn't make them Marxist organizations.

Many Marxists (most in the West, I'd daresay) believe in and are deeply committed to freedom and justice and liberty. They aren't monsters.

Were the founders of the KKK racists? How about Louis Farrakhan (he is not a founder) and the Nation of Islam… is he a racist? Are their respective organizations today full of reasonable non-racists? Or are both organizations interested in wiping out their opposition?

Because the history of Marxism and Socialism is full of millions of murders and there’s no reason to believe a future America run by Marxists would be any different. There would be a pogram against their opponents.

NeuM

@LinearLineman said:
@NeuM, how about felons? If Trump is convicted he could still be re-elected. Maybe even from jail.
Stars and Stripes forever!

I don’t see any possibility of him being convicted or imprisoned over anything, especially since the AG in New York ran on a platform of legally harassing and pursuing Trump without ever providing evidence of criminality. Remember the four years of debunked lies which were actively promoted by the media and even used by Democrats to carry out two failed impeachment attempts (since there is no such thing as “half an impeachment” they were failed attempts).

Also, remember Nelson Mandela? He was thrown in prison and was then later elected leader of his country. I don’t think a prison term should necessarily determine one’s electability, but then again it depends on the nature of the alleged crime, doesn’t it? If a former US President was somehow convicted on phony charges concocted by their political enemies?

But why do you keep mentioning Donald Trump? Joe Biden is the President.

legsmechanical

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@NeuM, how about felons? If Trump is convicted he could still be re-elected. Maybe even from jail.
Stars and Stripes forever!

I don’t see any possibility of him being convicted or imprisoned over anything, especially since the AG in New York ran on a platform of legally harassing and pursuing Trump without ever providing evidence of criminality. Remember the four years of debunked lies which were actively promoted by the media and even used by Democrats to carry out two failed impeachment attempts (since there is no such thing as “half an impeachment” they were failed attempts).

Also, remember Nelson Mandela? He was thrown in prison and was then later elected leader of his country. I don’t think a prison term should necessarily determine one’s electability, but then again it depends on the nature of the alleged crime, doesn’t it? If a former US President was somehow convicted on phony charges concocted by their political enemies?

Aaannnndddd... that’s a wrap! Thanks for coming everyone and we’ll see you next time!

NeuM

@legsmechanical said:

@NeuM said:

@LinearLineman said:
@NeuM, how about felons? If Trump is convicted he could still be re-elected. Maybe even from jail.
Stars and Stripes forever!

I don’t see any possibility of him being convicted or imprisoned over anything, especially since the AG in New York ran on a platform of legally harassing and pursuing Trump without ever providing evidence of criminality. Remember the four years of debunked lies which were actively promoted by the media and even used by Democrats to carry out two failed impeachment attempts (since there is no such thing as “half an impeachment” they were failed attempts).

Also, remember Nelson Mandela? He was thrown in prison and was then later elected leader of his country. I don’t think a prison term should necessarily determine one’s electability, but then again it depends on the nature of the alleged crime, doesn’t it? If a former US President was somehow convicted on phony charges concocted by their political enemies?

Aaannnndddd... that’s a wrap! Thanks for coming everyone and we’ll see you next time!

If you have something civil to discuss, feel free. Since you seem to be suggesting a person should be pigeonholed, maligned or dismissed because their political opinions are not aligned with your own, I urge you to give a full airing of yours.

If you are really a Marxist (as you stated in one of your posts), why are you?

Incidentally, have you ever heard of the cartoonist who created “Dilbert”? He is politically Left (by his own admission, he identifies as being “Left of Bernie Sanders”). Here he lays out some food for thought:

https://www.scottadamssays.com/2018/06/10/why-democrats-hear-a-secret-racist-dog-whistle-and-republicans-dont/

NeuM

@legsmechanical said:

@NeuM said:

@McD said:

@NeuM said:

What is your opinion regarding US Civil War monuments removed by mobs in a fit of outrage versus people being reminded of history with monuments remaining in full view? Is history removed history forgotten?

I’m against statues lamenting the “Lost Cause”. I can learn about the Civil War history with a visit to the library. Most of those statues were erected by Daughters of the South in response to civil rights advances. They are tributes to white denial.

Find me a status of Hitler or his Generals and I’ll see you’ve made some kind of relevant point but frankly you have only disclosed yet another blindspot. Robert E. Lee was not an American Patriot and the country he served was disbanded but has never ceased the struggle to affirm a distinct social order I find repugnant. He deserves no honor for his crimes against humanity. Slavery is an amoral policy to affirm at any time.

Statues of Christopher Columbus are also a salve to Italian immigrants that needed to have a heroic reference in US history and a reason for identity parades. It doesn’t change history and removing the statues is helpful to expose more blind spots. We can face reality and learn from the exercise.

Thanks for asking. Your Mob is often my organized protest.

I don’t doubt the conviction of the 1/6 Mob that they believe the lies of their Dear Leader.
They were protesting an election using violence. They had a lot of help from the men who guard the Nation... the truth will out even if Congress doesn’t investigate it on TV.

Would you believe it if I told you the Civil War was waged by the Federal government over the southern states threatening to leave the union and not over slavery? That’s a historical fact. And I don’t even hail from or align any of my beliefs with slave owners in the South.

You said “(y)our Mob is often my organized protest.” Organized protests are 100% OK with me. Arson, assault, looting, robbery, murder and promoting Marxist propaganda are problems.

As a white southerner from a long line of white southerners would you believe it if I told you people who spread this kind of revisionism are hateful dangerous pieces of uneducated cancerous shit and I’d be happy to be banned from this forum for saying so?

There’s no evidence you are who you claim you are. You could be anyone.

And there’s nothing “revisionist” about the facts surrounding the Federal government’s reasoning behind declaring war on the Southern states which were pursuing secession. “Preservation of the union” was Abraham Lincoln’s main motivation.

@legsmechanical said:
I’m a Marxist. Can you milk me, Greg?

But this comment of yours is a little… strange.

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

....

Because the history of Marxism and Socialism is full of millions of murders and there’s no reason to believe a future America run by Marxists would be any different. There would be a pogram against their opponents.

The history of Marxism and socialism includes peaceful nations as well as countries whose governments committed terrible crimes. There are plenty of non-socialist, non-Marxist governments (including the U.S. government) that have committed terrible atrocities in their pasts.

A belief in capitalism or marxism or socialism does not make one more likely or less likely to believe in justice and democracy and freedom and liberty and community and love and compassion.

I know that you believe to your core that Marxism and socialism are in opposition to freedom and justice, but they aren't. There is probably no way to get through to you. But you have a skewed view of what these people believe. I know that I won't be able to influence you in any way whatsoever. But I wish that you would get outside of your bubble and give consideration to the possibility that you might be mistaken.

You claim that you can respect people of all sorts of beliefs -- and yet you just made blanket condemnations and expressed the belief that some people should be denied rights not because of any crime that they have committed but because they have a different view of how economic systems should be organized than you prefer.

Your call to have people's right to vote or have jobs based on their beliefs is in opposition to the values expressed in the Constitution and hearkens to a dark period in U.S. history. Some of the things you have said up-thread sound like they could have been spoken by Joseph McCarthy:

NeuM wrote:
In my humble opinion, Marxists, Socialists and Communists should be legally and constitutionally prohibited from serving in any capacity in the US Federal government, including in positions as mundane as office workers. The common goal of collectivists are the elimination of capitalism, individual property rights and consequently, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights and the establishment of Communist rule. Collectivism is irreconcilably opposed to individualism.

Further, Marxists, Socialists, Communists should be openly challenged everywhere their inhuman systems are propagandized. Unlike Marxist authoritarians in BLM and Antifa, I don’t see violence as offering any kind of solution.

No matter how many people tell you that BLM isn't a Marxist authoritarian organization, you repeat the accusation.

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

....

Because the history of Marxism and Socialism is full of millions of murders and there’s no reason to believe a future America run by Marxists would be any different. There would be a pogram against their opponents.

The history of Marxism and socialism includes peaceful nations as well as countries whose governments committed terrible crimes. There are plenty of non-socialist, non-Marxist governments (including the U.S. government) that have committed terrible atrocities in their pasts.

A belief in capitalism or marxism or socialism does not make one more likely or less likely to believe in justice and democracy and freedom and liberty and community and love and compassion.

I know that you believe to your core that Marxism and socialism are in opposition to freedom and justice, but they aren't. There is probably no way to get through to you. But you have a skewed view of what these people believe. I know that I won't be able to influence you in any way whatsoever. But I wish that you would get outside of your bubble and give consideration to the possibility that you might be mistaken.

You claim that you can respect people of all sorts of beliefs -- and yet you just made blanket condemnations and expressed the belief that some people should be denied rights not because of any crime that they have committed but because they have a different view of how economic systems should be organized than you prefer.

Your call to have people's right to vote or have jobs based on their beliefs is in opposition to the values expressed in the Constitution and hearkens to a dark period in U.S. history. Some of the things you have said up-thread sound like they could have been spoken by Joseph McCarthy:

NeuM wrote:
In my humble opinion, Marxists, Socialists and Communists should be legally and constitutionally prohibited from serving in any capacity in the US Federal government, including in positions as mundane as office workers. The common goal of collectivists are the elimination of capitalism, individual property rights and consequently, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights and the establishment of Communist rule. Collectivism is irreconcilably opposed to individualism.

Further, Marxists, Socialists, Communists should be openly challenged everywhere their inhuman systems are propagandized. Unlike Marxist authoritarians in BLM and Antifa, I don’t see violence as offering any kind of solution.

No matter how many people tell you that BLM isn't a Marxist authoritarian organization, you repeat the accusation.

Did you know Karl Marx was racist? What part do you think his racist beliefs play into his philosophy? I’ve told you repeatedly that Collectivism is the root of Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc. And this is true. All Leftist political branches spring from Collectivism and a belief in Collectivism is intractably connected to racism. The individual is subservient to the group, the collective. It is impossible to have individual freedoms and rights in a collectivist system because no matter what, the collective has the final word.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-think-Karl-Marx-was-a-racist?share=1

You can hide the intent behind the name BLM, but the root, the branch and the fruits of their philosophy are all Marxist.

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

....

Because the history of Marxism and Socialism is full of millions of murders and there’s no reason to believe a future America run by Marxists would be any different. There would be a pogram against their opponents.

The history of Marxism and socialism includes peaceful nations as well as countries whose governments committed terrible crimes. There are plenty of non-socialist, non-Marxist governments (including the U.S. government) that have committed terrible atrocities in their pasts.

A belief in capitalism or marxism or socialism does not make one more likely or less likely to believe in justice and democracy and freedom and liberty and community and love and compassion.

I know that you believe to your core that Marxism and socialism are in opposition to freedom and justice, but they aren't. There is probably no way to get through to you. But you have a skewed view of what these people believe. I know that I won't be able to influence you in any way whatsoever. But I wish that you would get outside of your bubble and give consideration to the possibility that you might be mistaken.

You claim that you can respect people of all sorts of beliefs -- and yet you just made blanket condemnations and expressed the belief that some people should be denied rights not because of any crime that they have committed but because they have a different view of how economic systems should be organized than you prefer.

Your call to have people's right to vote or have jobs based on their beliefs is in opposition to the values expressed in the Constitution and hearkens to a dark period in U.S. history. Some of the things you have said up-thread sound like they could have been spoken by Joseph McCarthy:

NeuM wrote:
In my humble opinion, Marxists, Socialists and Communists should be legally and constitutionally prohibited from serving in any capacity in the US Federal government, including in positions as mundane as office workers. The common goal of collectivists are the elimination of capitalism, individual property rights and consequently, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights and the establishment of Communist rule. Collectivism is irreconcilably opposed to individualism.

Further, Marxists, Socialists, Communists should be openly challenged everywhere their inhuman systems are propagandized. Unlike Marxist authoritarians in BLM and Antifa, I don’t see violence as offering any kind of solution.

No matter how many people tell you that BLM isn't a Marxist authoritarian organization, you repeat the accusation.

Did you know Karl Marx was racist? What part do you think his racist beliefs play into his philosophy? I’ve told you repeatedly that Collectivism is the root of Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc. And this is true. All Leftist political branches spring from Collectivism and a belief in Collectivism is intractably connected to racism. The individual is subservient to the group, the collective. It is impossible to have individual freedoms and rights in a collectivist system.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-think-Karl-Marx-was-a-racist?share=1

And almost every founder of our country was racist. Jefferson's racism, for instance, doesn't undermine the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence even if in his life he did not embody them.

Marx having been a racist doesn't tarnish anyone who believes in any of the extremely varied belief systems that grouped together and labeled as marxist or socialist. Marxism isn't a religion where people idolize the person whose name has become associated with a VERY LOOSE set of principles.

A mathematician or a scientist being racist doesn't have any relevance to the truth or falsity of the truths they discover.

I feel like you are lost in a land of ad hominems.

McD

I’m more concerned by the weaponized militias that are forming to enforce a white supremicist agenda than some one that would speak of the benefits of Marxist theories about the dangers of capitalism. Money has corrupted politics beyond any ideology including fiscal conservatism or libertarianism. The people involved are corrupted by the powerful with stacks of money to buy the laws they want and insure many laws are never enforced on the upper classes.

The rest are incensed by controlling abortions and pushing back on non-Christian religions... banning yoga and Harry Potter books.

CRT just rubs salt in the wounds of those loosing status in a more diverse world. Sorry... you now live on n a global marketplace and must compete for a shrinking number of good paying jobs. The gig economy does not end well some since there’s not much chance to save. Of course you can go into politics and become a corrupt clown video artist pimping for Q followers and their tips.

NeuM

@McD said:
I’m more concerned by the weaponized militias that are forming to enforce a white supremicist agenda than some one that would speak of the benefits of Marxist theories about the dangers of capitalism. Money has corrupted politics beyond any ideology including fiscal conservatism or libertarianism. The people involved are corrupted by the powerful with stacks of money to buy the laws they want and insure many laws are never enforced on the upper classes.

The rest are incensed by controlling abortions and pushing back on non-Christian religions... banning yoga and Harry Potter books.

CRT just rubs salt in the wounds of those loosing status in a more diverse world. Sorry... you now live on n a global marketplace and must compete for a shrinking number of good paying jobs. The gig economy does not end well some since there’s not much chance to save. Of course you can go into politics and become a corrupt clown video artist pimping for Q followers and their tips.

I’ve never met anyone who said they were a “white supremacist”. Have you? I would never consider hanging around with anyone who espouses such beliefs. And “Q” is good for a laugh, nothing more.

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

....

Because the history of Marxism and Socialism is full of millions of murders and there’s no reason to believe a future America run by Marxists would be any different. There would be a pogram against their opponents.

The history of Marxism and socialism includes peaceful nations as well as countries whose governments committed terrible crimes. There are plenty of non-socialist, non-Marxist governments (including the U.S. government) that have committed terrible atrocities in their pasts.

A belief in capitalism or marxism or socialism does not make one more likely or less likely to believe in justice and democracy and freedom and liberty and community and love and compassion.

I know that you believe to your core that Marxism and socialism are in opposition to freedom and justice, but they aren't. There is probably no way to get through to you. But you have a skewed view of what these people believe. I know that I won't be able to influence you in any way whatsoever. But I wish that you would get outside of your bubble and give consideration to the possibility that you might be mistaken.

You claim that you can respect people of all sorts of beliefs -- and yet you just made blanket condemnations and expressed the belief that some people should be denied rights not because of any crime that they have committed but because they have a different view of how economic systems should be organized than you prefer.

Your call to have people's right to vote or have jobs based on their beliefs is in opposition to the values expressed in the Constitution and hearkens to a dark period in U.S. history. Some of the things you have said up-thread sound like they could have been spoken by Joseph McCarthy:

NeuM wrote:
In my humble opinion, Marxists, Socialists and Communists should be legally and constitutionally prohibited from serving in any capacity in the US Federal government, including in positions as mundane as office workers. The common goal of collectivists are the elimination of capitalism, individual property rights and consequently, individual liberty and the Bill of Rights and the establishment of Communist rule. Collectivism is irreconcilably opposed to individualism.

Further, Marxists, Socialists, Communists should be openly challenged everywhere their inhuman systems are propagandized. Unlike Marxist authoritarians in BLM and Antifa, I don’t see violence as offering any kind of solution.

No matter how many people tell you that BLM isn't a Marxist authoritarian organization, you repeat the accusation.

Did you know Karl Marx was racist? What part do you think his racist beliefs play into his philosophy? I’ve told you repeatedly that Collectivism is the root of Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc. And this is true. All Leftist political branches spring from Collectivism and a belief in Collectivism is intractably connected to racism. The individual is subservient to the group, the collective. It is impossible to have individual freedoms and rights in a collectivist system.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-think-Karl-Marx-was-a-racist?share=1

And almost every founder of our country was racist. Jefferson's racism, for instance, doesn't undermine the values expressed in the Declaration of Independence even if in his life he did not embody them.

Marx having been a racist doesn't tarnish anyone who believes in any of the extremely varied belief systems that grouped together and labeled as marxist or socialist. Marxism isn't a religion where people idolize the person whose name has become associated with a VERY LOOSE set of principles.

A mathematician or a scientist being racist doesn't have any relevance to the truth or falsity of the truths they discover.

I feel like you are lost in a land of ad hominems.

You repeat assertions without facts as if they should be accepted because you say so. I’ve provided ample evidence supporting my claims.

McD

@NeuM said:

I’ve never met anyone who said they were a “white supremacist”. Have you?

Sure. They can’t accept the idea that Black Lives Matter.

In poker it’s called a tell. Deal with that Skip.

Marxist label gets trotted out to disguise a cold hard truth.

Being labeled is not great but sometimes it needs a little introspection.

If you’d never met someone who espouses the natural superiority of the white race you’ve been ignoring a lot of clues that people relay around race discussions. They erupt in anger at the way the world is changing.

Are you ready to erupt or to be casually racist?

Michael

And...scene