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The Greenwood Massacre Centennial

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Comments

  • AudioGusAudioGus
    edited June 2021

    ((Re: video, Problem with presidents is once you get rid of one another just takes it’s place.))

  • SirMcpSirMcp

    True Audiogus so true. How ever I think I have a solution to racism but it can only be solved with Drambo. Something about automation and p locks.

  • mashtupmashtup

    Thanks Linearlineman for this thread - I’ve really loved this forum this year, and that’s for many reasons, but discussion of the world around us has been an important part of that.

    I would agree that prejudice can be found throughout all human societies, and as the word is related to the idea of pre-judging another group or individual, then clearly prejudices can be challenged and overcome, and we can all find that our projections have been wrong, completely or at least to some degree.

    I think that what I would refer to as ‘scientific racism’ is a definite thing, with a history that links the experiments/gas chambers of Nazi Germany to the inhuman treatment of colonised people by European/American superpowers and the slavery that is associated with that expansion.

    It is arguable that US and UK culture and politics are haunted by the degree to which ‘our’ past has been sanitised - I’m 53 and checking with my 18 year old student, we had both been broadly taught the same thing about the British slave trade - that Britain had played a leading role in the abolition of slavery, and the only name associated with this we were given was that of William Wilberforce. Teaching this idea in isolation is clearly massively misleading.

    For those outside the UK, the Windrush scandal of recent years is evidence (to me) that racism still plays an unhealthy role in our society, even if it is less obvious than in the US.

    As musicians, surely we can all appreciate how much our shared musical heritage has benefited from the diaspora that sprang up from many terrible world events - good to see the positive where possible, but ignorance isn’t any kind of an answer to the atrocities that have taken place.

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

  • GreenieGreenie

    You folks might want to check out the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities-GUV.UK published in March 2021 .

  • NeuMNeuM

    @LinearLineman said:
    @NeuM , I think I understand where you are coming from. I will be honest with you from my perspective, tho I regret hurting your feelings or angering you. In surrounding yourself with ideological shibboleths you cut yourself off from any but those who share your views. Which, IMO,
    leaves you in the poor company of those who replace true feelings of compassion and brotherhood with an inflexible dialectic. It becomes an argument for argument’s sake with no real room for connection.

    From some of the things you say, I believe you are acting mostly in good faith. What jars me is the concretion of judgements with catch all phrases and “complex” political theory. You say you believe in the individual, yet for me,, on a feeling level, I don’t get real heart involvement with the pain of other human beings. It is hard for me, too. My psychologist exwife gf recently placed me on the Asperger’s spectrum. At first I rebelled at this characterization, but the more I thought about it the more I can see it. Something in me shields me from the pain of the world.

    But I am working on it... like the man who wore a compassionate mask for so long that he became compassionate underneath instead of detached.

    I imagine you will think me way off base with this and presumptuous. I do not expect to change your perspective. The acknowledgment of who we really are to ourselves is perhaps the most difficult task before us. Maybe you have, indeed, had that confrontation. But one thing for sure... I trust my feeling, and my feelings about other people.

    I think somehow we’re communicating past each other. Your comments didn’t hurt my feelings and I’m not isolated by “ideological shibboleths”. Speaking for myself, I get along great with everyone and I harbor no ill will toward others with views different from my own. Seriously. The world is a big place and there’s lots of room for agreement and disagreement.

    If your ex-wife or ex-girlfriend was a psychologist who placed you on the spectrum, first of all, get a second opinion. Just a little relationship humor! Did you take a Myers-Briggs test? Although that test can be illuminating, it relies on your input for its output. Don’t be limited by what a test tells you.

    And again, my point of view here… I accept people for who they are and I accept your feelings on a matter being as valid as anyone else’s comments or perspective. When I lay out my rationale for something, believe it or not, I’m not trying to win anyone over to “my side”. Every person has a life experience unique to them.

  • LinearLinemanLinearLineman

    Good response @NeuM, and clarifying. No, lol, I won’t explore my possible Asperger’s any further. Being in the company of Elon Musk is good enough for me! 😉😎🙏

  • NeuMNeuM

    @michael_m said:

    @ervin said:

    @michael_m said:

    @NeuM said:

    @michael_m said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @NeuM: you wrote " And what proof do you have of systemic racism?"

    I would like to better understand where you are coming from. Are you suggesting that there is not systemic racism in the U.S. and that systemic racism was not a significant factor in the past that continues to have consequences?

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally played absolutely no part in the problems of the past.

    That wasn't the question. You said something (see quoted passage) that sounded like you questioned the existence of systemic racism. Rather than jump to conclusions, I asked a clarifying question.

    The only evidence supporting claims of systemic racism today lie within the policies and proposals of the political Left. Racism is rooted in collectivism, which is philosophically opposed to individualism. When people respect others as individuals, there is no room for racism.

    I hardly think that’s true. I can speak from personal experience in the South and say that there is a lot of racism here that originates in decidedly right-leaning people, who collectively congratulate each other on reinforcing racist stereotypes and denigrating attempts at recognizing their prejudices for what they are.

    I’m really not sure why you think that racism only exists because of “policies and proposals of the political Left.” Ingratiate yourself in any social manner with a variety of people in the South and after a while you will be enlightened by a few into beliefs that almost no one would think to describe as anything other than “white supremacy.”

    What do you mean by “the South”? All of the Southern US? One State? One city? A few cities? Are you assuming every city is the same based on your personal experience? I’ve never known people to uniformly agree on anything, even people on the same “team”. I’m just asking for clarification.

    Southern US in general (and other states nearby). Apologies to any states in the South where this is not true, but I can say I’ve experienced this in at least one place in VA, NC, SC, GA, TN, and FL.

    OK, but regarding that one place - what do you mean by "one place"? A city? A village? And which street was it exactly? Are you assuming that every other street in that place is the same, based on your personal experience? I've never known people to uniformly agree on anything, even people living in the same street. I'm just asking for clarification. 🤷

    [Next up: which house exactly? :)]

    Based on the same logic, this can be played ad infinitum, and often is. But ultimately, it's just a version of the "not all men" or "not all white people" argument.

    Depends which state, as the time I have spent in each one has varied. My point was to refute the original statement that implied that racism only existed in politically left-leaning people, but that has absolutely not been my experience.

    For example - I had it pointed out to me by more than one person that there is a certain street in the southern end of Charlotte, NC close to the SC line that is the address of a high ranking KKK member, and it can be seen while driving on I-77. I took it with a grain is salt until I saw it - high fences with razor wire, confederate flags flown high alongside a blood drop cross. I wouldn’t have thought that anyone would disagree that the KKK represents racism. For the past 4+ years a large Trump flag has also been flown there. To me that is an association between racism and right-wing politics.

    In SC a group of us once stopped at a rural gas station (maybe 15 years ago) with a large barn behind it. I went in with a friend who is mixed race, and the guy at the counter was unfriendly and borderline angry. We asked to use the bathrooms and were directed through a door leading into the connected barn. The barn was a pool hall and bar, and after I used the bathroom and was waiting for my friend I started looking at the framed photos on the walls. There was Klan imagery all over them, and carved into the walls next to some of them were various racist comments. Included among the photos were various photos of people I didn’t know with various Republican presidents going back to Reagan. Again, I think a right-leaning connection with racism.

    More recently, just various dialog with various individuals who have expressed racism in various forms, who have also been clear about their political leaning. On MLK Day a few years ago: “They should have shot 4 more of the black c***s and we could have had a whole week off.” My state trooper ex-neighbor and his wife during construction in our neighborhood: “I don’t want those dirty Mexicans in the neighborhood looking at my daughter while she waits for the school bus.”

    Etc.

    I think you might vehemently dispute this, but the roots of racism are collectivist. That member of the KKK you describe, has a belief which is collectivist. Collectivism is also the root of the political Left, so a person hoisting a KKK banner next to a Trump flag is an ideological trainwreck. If anyone supports racism, yet claims to be a conservative then they really don’t know what they’re talking about. The KKK, the Nation of Islam, BLM and Antifa are all collectivists, at least several of them are openly Marxist.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @SirMcp said:
    True Audiogus so true. How ever I think I have a solution to racism but it can only be solved with Drambo. Something about automation and p locks.

    LOL. That has got to be some app!

  • hansjbshansjbs

    @LinearLineman 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

    BLM and Antifa burn down businesses because they are Marxist racists who have a stated goal of overthrowing capitalism (among other things). But one has to wonder about the real level of “commitment” of the BLM leadership since Patrice Khan-Cullors just stepped down after it was discovered that she had been buying up properties across the US using money donated to BLM.

    https://nypost.com/2021/04/10/inside-blm-co-founder-patrisse-khan-cullors-real-estate-buying-binge/

    https://news.yahoo.com/patrisse-cullors-black-lives-matter-003304540.html

  • NeuMNeuM

    @LinearLineman said:
    Good response @NeuM, and clarifying. No, lol, I won’t explore my possible Asperger’s any further. Being in the company of Elon Musk is good enough for me! 😉😎🙏

    🤩👍

  • SirMcpSirMcp

    NeuM it’s only a matter of time before Drambo high jacks another thread so resistance is futile.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

    BLM burns down businesses because they are Marxist racists who have a stated goal of overthrowing capitalism.

    image

  • NeuMNeuM

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

    BLM burns down businesses because they are Marxist racists who have a stated goal of overthrowing capitalism.

    image

    It appears you are very sympathetic to this group for some reason. If that’s a fair statement, why? I notice you didn’t address the use of BLM donations to buy private property by their leadership.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

    BLM burns down businesses because they are Marxist racists who have a stated goal of overthrowing capitalism.

    image

    It appears you are very sympathetic to this group for some reason. If that’s a fair statement, why? I notice you didn’t address the use of BLM donations to buy private property by their leadership.

    Because your argument is pure whataboutism. It's not worth engaging with.

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:

    @NeuM said:

    @richardyot said:
    That video seemed to make a false equivalence between the events in Tulsa 100 years ago and BLM. Then quibbled over the number of deaths.

    What’s undeniable is that an entire neighbourhood was burned down. Thousands of innocent people were subjected to an act of collective punishment relating to events they had nothing to do with, just because they happened to be black.

    You can’t equate that with BLM in any way. BLM didn’t target white residential neighbourhoods for collective reprisals aimed at innocent people. The whole argument is based on false equivalence.

    BLM and Antifa have both attacked and assaulted completely innocent people, including police, by the way. They continue to do the same today. Anyone lacking context here should follow Andy Ngo on Twitter. He documents this by reporting actual daily arrests in Portland and Seattle by releasing public records. I believe it was just yesterday an Antifa mob tried to kill him again.

    That's still the same false equivalence though. BLM didn't burn down an entire white neighbourhood in an act of collective punishment, which is what happened in Tulsa.

    BLM burns down businesses because they are Marxist racists who have a stated goal of overthrowing capitalism.

    image

    It appears you are very sympathetic to this group for some reason. If that’s a fair statement, why? I notice you didn’t address the use of BLM donations to buy private property by their leadership.

    Because your argument is pure whataboutism. It's not worth engaging with.

    Then you don’t agree with their Marxist leadership or their agenda? Looks like Li’l Wayne doesn’t.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    For what it's worth I condemn all acts of violence, whoever carries them out, but drawing a comparison between the Tulsa massacre and BLM is (and I repeat) a vile false equivalency whose only aim is to try and downplay what happened in Tulsa.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @richardyot said:
    For what it's worth I condemn all acts of violence, whoever carries them out, but drawing a comparison between the Tulsa massacre and BLM is (and I repeat) a vile false equivalency whose only aim is to try and downplay what happened in Tulsa.

    I didn’t draw a false comparison. They are different things. Whatever was the “real reality” of the destruction in Tulsa can only be known by everyone who was there. Trying to divine what exactly were the interior motivations of people 100 years ago from poorly documented accounts today is not realistic, especially when the interpretation and veneer of self-interested social activists of today are applied to all of it.

  • richardyotrichardyot
    edited June 2021

    An entire neighbourhood was destroyed in an act of collective punishment, there's no ambiguity or uncertainty about that. It's something that is easily verifiable. Thousands of innocent people lost their homes, scores of them died.

  • horsetrainerhorsetrainer

    Apparently... nothing outside the individual's own sphere of observation can be known with certainty....

  • NeuMNeuM
    edited June 2021

    @richardyot said:
    An entire neighbourhood was destroyed in an act of collective punishment, there's no ambiguity or uncertainty about that. It's something that is easily verifiable. Thousands of innocent people lost their homes, scores of them died.

    Officer Tatum discovered inconsistencies, so of course there’s ambiguity about what really happened and what were the precipitating events. Were you there yourself or do you rely on secondhand/thirdhand accounts of what happened? Burned down homes and deaths are evidence. The motivations are up to conjecture.

  • richardyotrichardyot

    🤡

  • NeuMNeuM

    @richardyot said:
    🤡

    You do realize that ad hominem attacks aren’t arguments?

  • richardyotrichardyot

    There is no argument, just noise.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @richardyot said:
    There is no argument, just noise.

    That’s still not an answer.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @horsetrainer said:
    Apparently... nothing outside the individual's own sphere of observation can be known with certainty....

    I’ll take that a step further. Nothing involving the interior motivations of others can ever be known with complete certainty.

  • SirMcpSirMcp

    A century later and we are still burning down our communities. I say our deliberately because we are Americans!
    What we need to do is go to Washington to the Capitol Building and…..oh wait a minute that almost happened early this year. My bad. The Drambo idea might be better.

  • NeuMNeuM

    @SirMcp said:
    A century later and we are still burning down our communities. I say our deliberately because we are Americans!
    What we need to do is go to Washington to the Capitol Building and…..oh wait a minute that almost happened early this year. My bad. The Drambo idea might be better.

    Americans are free to disagree and protest, not to commit assaults, murder, arson or loot. :)

This discussion has been closed.

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