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Moog - 8 New Apps Released - Moogerfooger FX & Bundle Available

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Comments

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Slush said:
    More quick and dirty noodling with the Moogs with Delay, Clusterfux and MuRF is action on all sorts of stuff. A little of these goes a long away. Still have to test how they work when one modulates the other. Too little time.

    Hey c’mon guys, post your testdrives, don’t have to be perfect!

    What are the inputs? I saw Lagrange, but didn’t recognize the drum app.

    Yes, 2x Lagrange, sequenced with Helium, and with the Hilda sequencer.
    Drums with FAC Drumkit with a custom made freebie 808 kit from Samples from Mars (https://samplesfrommars.com/search?q=free) And indeed, sequenced with Octachron.

  • @ik2000 said:

    @Slush said:
    More quick and dirty noodling with the Moogs with Delay, Clusterfux and MuRF is action on all sorts of stuff. A little of these goes a long away. Still have to test how they work when one modulates the other. Too little time.

    Hey c’mon guys, post your testdrives, don’t have to be perfect!

    That’s so nice… very sharp and those Moog FX are working a treat. Thanks for sharing.

    Thanks :)

  • its nice that you can have the drive on the complete dry signal.
    and its sounds good

  • edited August 2023

    Could anyone explain this aspect of virtual cv to me?

    “ DC - provides a DC offset that you can scale with the associated attenuator. Since the CV attenuator itself can be automated or MIDI mapped, you can use this like an expression pedal. It will provide the same range of automation/modulation to a parameter regardless of any presets you choose.”

    I’m not a modular guy. I mapped an lfo to the lfo rate attenuator in clusterflux, but I don’t see any different behaviour whether dc is selected or not. So I would love some clarity on this function if anyone can provide it, cheers

    Edit - I do hear the difference now, but I am still not really clear how to describe in simple language what is happening

    Edit edited - ok, so I think it’s just that if you assign an lfo to modulate an attenuator - if you don’t turn on dc, the lfo just won’t have any effect on the attenuator. Is that right? And why do it that way? Why not just let the lfo modulate the attenuator without needing to select dc - don’t get it

    Another edit - ok so I think doing things this way is better than modulating the lfo rate knob with a midi lfo directly - using this dc thing gets rid of the stepping - correct? So allows you to actually use a midi lfo but converts it into high res midi?

  • @Gavinski said:
    Could anyone explain this aspect of virtual cv to me?

    “ DC - provides a DC offset that you can scale with the associated attenuator. Since the CV attenuator itself can be automated or MIDI mapped, you can use this like an expression pedal. It will provide the same range of automation/modulation to a parameter regardless of any presets you choose.”

    I’m not a modular guy. I mapped an lfo to the lfo rate attenuator in clusterflux, but I don’t see any different behaviour whether dc is selected or not. So I would love some clarity on this function if anyone can provide it, cheers

    Edit - I do hear the difference now, but I am still not really clear how to describe in simple language what is happening

    Edit edited - ok, so I think it’s just that if you assign an lfo to modulate an attenuator - if you don’t turn on dc, the lfo just won’t have any effect on the attenuator. Is that right? And why do it that way? Why not just let the lfo modulate the attenuator without needing to select dc - don’t get it

    Generally in modular DC refers to signals that only go upwards from zero, meaning you can only ever affect things positively, ie increasing them, whereas AC signals will swing below zero, meaning that you can affect a setting both negatively and positively. I’m not at my iPad right now so can’t do a test to see if this is what Joe l you’re seeing or not, but that’s the general rule (I think, someone dead corner will probably come along in a minute and shoot me down like always😂)

  • From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

  • FWIW, modulating the filter cutoff AU param, even at audio rate, seems to produce the same results as modulating through CV, but of course you lose the ability to tweak the knob in the UI

  • @robosardine said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @robosardine said:

    @bygjohn said:
    Hmm. Took the plunge this morning, and after an hour and a half of fiddling with these, TBH I’m a bit disappointed. I’m obviously going to have to watch some tutorials and plough my way through the manuals, so I’m reserving judgement for now, but even the presets seem a bit meh so far. Usually after that amount of time I’d have got at least one usable result, but so far no joy.

    Thanks for mentioning that. I was getting the feeling that the very same thing would happen to me after hearing some of the demos etc. I’ve been there many times before and the price is not inconsiderable. I hate that sinking feeling. I think I’ll pass on this lot at the moment.

    I think the price is great for what’s on offer! I think these are easily up there with the best releases of the year by a long shot. What’s not to like?

    The amount of apps I already have is mind boggling - and probably ridiculous in some peoples eyes. So part of it is the old one about making the most out of the apps I have. Also if I ask myself - would I buy these apps having seen the demos but not having read the threads? And the answer would be no. So I really don’t have a strong desire to own them anyway.
    Having said that (talk about instant hypocrisy 😀) - I’m thinking about investing in Magic Delay even though its £25 - not too far off the price of this bundle, but I think I might get more use out of it.

    Fair enough! I’ve been hoping for these to get ported since the desktop ones were released so I jumped on it immediately. FWIW I think they’re amazing and highly worth it.

    Magic Delay is one of my favorite delays and effects in general on iOS. All of their apps are fantastic but Delay and Blur are otherworldly.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @sigma79 said:

    @HotStrange said:

    Koshiba is the Murf killer. More control, more steps, and three dollars cheaper.

    One of the selling points for the Moog’s is the cv control and being able to use them in tandem. But yeah Koshiba is great. Same for the 2 free AudioModern apps, Perforator, and Looperator too.

    The "CV" feature is the least impressive aspect of these apps to me. Pretty much all decent AU fx apps allow for interconnection. It's easy in AUM. I don't see anything novel about that in the Moog apps other than the in-app dropdown menus. What I usually look for in the Moog apps is a unique sound, and they nearly always deliver.

    For me the physicality and interface of them is great and being able to use one to modulate the other to modulate the other, etc etc is super cool and allows for some really fun and crazy sounds. Sure you can load up some LFOs to do that, but it’s not the same experience and won’t necessarily equate to the same results.

    Using a regular lfo will definitely NOT yield the same results on things like filter sweeps @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr - try using the cv feature in the Moog apps to modulate filter resonance of the moogerfooger filter with the lfo of another moogerfooger. Slow rate. Now try with a regular lfo, also slow rate. Using a regular lfo you will clearly hear stepping. Not when using the moogerfooger cv function. So actually this whole cv thing is easily one of the best things about these Moogerfooger apps, not at all underwhelming!

    Exactly what I was getting at. You can do the same thing with an LFO in a general sense but it won’t feel the same or yield the same results. Definitely think the CV functionality is one of the highlights.

    Now you’ve got me excited to find out if my ears are up to hearing the difference.

    Let us know your thoughts! They’re really a lot of fun.

  • @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

  • @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

  • edited August 2023

    Op, just saw these. Love when Moog drops something out of nowhere. I never had these as a kid but do remember a couple older kids talking about “Moog’s new guitar pedals” and me scoffing at wanting a synth pedal for a guitar. I have a feeling the Murf is gonna be the easy winner. But a pretty full-featured suite of effects, simple to deal with while still letting you get weird.

    While I think the CV connectivity is a great technological achievement, I can’t reealllly see the big deal about modulating one pedals knob with another’s LFO. I dunno, I’ll prob go see how expansive it can get. I’m just usually not impressed with the things you can actually do with semi-modular capabilities. Most of the time they just seem like synth wank for people who like to talk.

  • @HotStrange said:

    @robosardine said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @robosardine said:

    @bygjohn said:
    Hmm. Took the plunge this morning, and after an hour and a half of fiddling with these, TBH I’m a bit disappointed. I’m obviously going to have to watch some tutorials and plough my way through the manuals, so I’m reserving judgement for now, but even the presets seem a bit meh so far. Usually after that amount of time I’d have got at least one usable result, but so far no joy.

    Thanks for mentioning that. I was getting the feeling that the very same thing would happen to me after hearing some of the demos etc. I’ve been there many times before and the price is not inconsiderable. I hate that sinking feeling. I think I’ll pass on this lot at the moment.

    I think the price is great for what’s on offer! I think these are easily up there with the best releases of the year by a long shot. What’s not to like?

    The amount of apps I already have is mind boggling - and probably ridiculous in some peoples eyes. So part of it is the old one about making the most out of the apps I have. Also if I ask myself - would I buy these apps having seen the demos but not having read the threads? And the answer would be no. So I really don’t have a strong desire to own them anyway.
    Having said that (talk about instant hypocrisy 😀) - I’m thinking about investing in Magic Delay even though its £25 - not too far off the price of this bundle, but I think I might get more use out of it.

    Fair enough! I’ve been hoping for these to get ported since the desktop ones were released so I jumped on it immediately. FWIW I think they’re amazing and highly worth it.

    Magic Delay is one of my favorite delays and effects in general on iOS. All of their apps are fantastic but Delay and Blur are otherworldly.

    Another big up to the Magic series of effects. Some of the most novel sounds I’ve heard in years, and not too painful to calibrate.

  • edited August 2023

    Yep I bought 3 apps in advance of the bundle to start playing around with and completed the bundle at $9.99 for the remaining 5 apps.

    If waiting , Just make sure you complete the bundle before all the prices raise from 9.99 to 14.99 because the bundle price will also likely raise to I think around $59.99 if it’s half the cost of full price like the current bundle , but then only 9.99 per app you paid for will be reduced from the $59.99 as opposed to with intro price bundle it will subtract what you paid from $39.99

    @sigma79 said:

    @gregsmith said:
    Has anyone bought a single app and can confirm it takes that amount off the bundle price? I can’t really justify all of them but thinking about just getting MuRF for now.

    Yeah.

    9.99 off etc.

    @gregsmith said:
    Has anyone bought a single app and can confirm it takes that amount off the bundle price? I can’t really justify all of them but thinking about just getting MuRF for now.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

  • edited August 2023

    @bygjohn said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

    Thanks, I see now. If I understand correctly--the advantage is that one can automate the Moog app's attenuvertor itself by CC, giving an extra dimension of control that you can't automate in AUM.

    Now I'm wondering if the range settings in Rozeta LFO are exposed parameters. Hmmm.....!

  • @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    That seems right. Though I note the MF manuals refer to them as attenuators whereas you keep mentioning attenuvertors. Aren’t they different?

  • @oat_phipps said:
    Op, just saw these. Love when Moog drops something out of nowhere. I never had these as a kid but do remember a couple older kids talking about “Moog’s new guitar pedals” and me scoffing at wanting a synth pedal for a guitar. I have a feeling the Murf is gonna be the easy winner. But a pretty full-featured suite of effects, simple to deal with while still letting you get weird.

    While I think the CV connectivity is a great technological achievement, I can’t reealllly see the big deal about modulating one pedals knob with another’s LFO. I dunno, I’ll prob go see how expansive it can get. I’m just usually not impressed with the things you can actually do with semi-modular capabilities. Most of the time they just seem like synth wank for people who like to talk.

    It’s not - midi is stepped, this virtual cv system is step-free, totally smooth, like analogue gear or hi-res midi. So it is a very big deal actually, especially for certain things like slow filter cutoff modulation. See my post earlier about this. Great apps, great idea!

  • @bygjohn said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

    I’m definitely right - when using slow lfos and comparing the visualization of modulation in the apps, you can also see the lack of stepping when using the dc option vs using an lfo directly to modulate a knob. With a slow sine lfo modding a knob directly, you can see the white line around the knob jumping slightly. With the dc system, the same lfo behaviour will produce smooth as butter results.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    That seems right. Though I note the MF manuals refer to them as attenuators whereas you keep mentioning attenuvertors. Aren’t they different?

    They are different, but attenuator would probably cover both. The ones on the MFs are definitely attenuverters, though.

    Attenuators are basically like volume controls, so control the amount of signal going through them.

    Attenuverters are just attenuators that can also invert the signal as well. So at 12 o’clock they do nothing - volume is right down, effectively. Turn to the right, it opens up with the same direction as the input signal (turns the knob it controls to the right, or modulates upwards). Turn to the left it opens up with the signal inverted (turns the knob it controls to the left, or modulates downwards).

  • @Gavinski said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

    I’m definitely right - when using slow lfos and comparing the visualization of modulation in the apps, you can also see the lack of stepping when using the dc option vs using an lfo directly to modulate a knob. With a slow sine lfo modding a knob directly, you can see the white line around the knob jumping slightly. With the dc system, the same lfo behaviour will produce smooth as butter results.

    That’s conclusive, then. And the way they’ve done it is pretty clever, I have to say. It’s one thing to have the smooth stuff internally, another level to have it smooth external steppy signals out.

  • can you hear a steppy cutoff modulation in a full mix?

  • Ah, that all makes sense now, I’d tried to figure out why you’d need another attenuvator but hadn’t realised the knobs could be modulated externally…

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

    I’m definitely right - when using slow lfos and comparing the visualization of modulation in the apps, you can also see the lack of stepping when using the dc option vs using an lfo directly to modulate a knob. With a slow sine lfo modding a knob directly, you can see the white line around the knob jumping slightly. With the dc system, the same lfo behaviour will produce smooth as butter results.

    That’s conclusive, then. And the way they’ve done it is pretty clever, I have to say. It’s one thing to have the smooth stuff internally, another level to have it smooth external steppy signals out.

  • @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @bygjohn said:

    @Gavinski said:
    From Moog:

    DC is a constant signal of maximum amplitude here, this means that the attenuator for the CV signal all the way open is full range. You can then use any parameter automation to automate that CV input. This is different form automating the knobs because it still allows you to tweak the knobs and change presets, while also having control over the additional CV signal

    OK, I’ll have a crack at this, though the caveat is that my understanding may not be what Moog are meaning, if you see what I mean. And if I’ve got this hopelessly wrong, someone jump in and tell me!

    A DC offset basically moves a waveform up or down from a centre baseline (zero offset). So an attenuverter adjusts how much wobble there is (and which direction), and ann offset control sets the point around which the wobble occurs. In this case, though, the main knob to which you’re applying the CV effectively does that

    Having had a delve in a couple of the MFs, this is what it looks like to me:

    What you have on each CV input is an attenuverter, which sets the amount of wobble the CV applies to the target knob, and which direction it does it in. So far so good. The DC option seems to turn the attenuverter knob into an offset control (selecting it seems to disconnect any other connection). The function of this seems to be to allow you to use the attenuverter like an expression pedal: the voltage becomes DC rather than an AC modulation signal, so you can set a knob value on the main control and use the attenuverter knob to vary it but leave the knob’s value alone, so when the attenuverter is at 0 (doing nothing) the knob position in the main panel applies.

    The point seems to be to allow you to manually (or using a MIDI LFO on the attenuverter knob) adjust things (ie play the attenuverter knob), while still letting you adjust the main control, which you can’t do if you automate it directly.

    (I’m crossing my fingers I haven’t got this horribly wrong!)

    I was with you until the last clause. In AUM you can adjust the amount of CC effect on any parameter you automate with an LFO. It's the midi equivalent of an attenuverter.

    Of course you can adjust CC effect via AUM (or another host), or (certainly with Rozeta LFOs) by using the range settings of the MIDI LFO itself. However…

    @Gavinski was asking about what the DC option was doing. It’s turning the attenuverter knob into a variable DC offset control. That means (for example) you can set the frequency of the filter cutoff on the main panel, use a MIDI CC to modulate it via the attenuverter knob, while still being able to manually adjust the cutoff via the main panel knob. More performance options, basically - if you modulate the panel knob itself you can’t adjust it any more as the CC is controlling the knob. The CC source may be a pedal or knob, not just an LFO - and you need to adjust the CC range as you mention above, because the attenuverter knob is now an offset control, so can’t act as an attenuverter.

    As Gav pointed out above, this seems to have the second advantage that it smooths out the CC to remove the steppiness in the modulation. Superficially (on the basis of a brief listen) I’d say he’s right. It seems much more smooth using the attenuverter rather than modulating the panel knob.

    I’m definitely right - when using slow lfos and comparing the visualization of modulation in the apps, you can also see the lack of stepping when using the dc option vs using an lfo directly to modulate a knob. With a slow sine lfo modding a knob directly, you can see the white line around the knob jumping slightly. With the dc system, the same lfo behaviour will produce smooth as butter results.

    That’s conclusive, then. And the way they’ve done it is pretty clever, I have to say. It’s one thing to have the smooth stuff internally, another level to have it smooth external steppy signals out.

    Indeed!

  • @Birdpie said:
    can you hear a steppy cutoff modulation in a full mix?

    That would really depend, but for the kind of minimalist drone stuff I like to do, not having stepping makes an audible difference.

    Little demo using midiLFOs on X / Twitter, and the same demo on Threads. Using the DC function giving zero stepping on sine lfos etc:

    https://x.com/gavinski_s/status/1691010747554557953?s=61&t=h9IT_HLFyi9pwn2iXlMGDQ

    https://www.threads.net/@gavinskistutorials/post/Cv61RJlBqjw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

  • is there any i can't build in mirack?

  • @Birdpie said:
    is there any i can't build in mirack?

    I don't think so, after building some of them with Drambo.
    What you have here is a set of dedicated plugins with custom UI, and some prefer it this way.

  • @rs2000 said:

    @Birdpie said:
    is there any i can't build in mirack?

    I don't think so, after building some of them with Drambo.
    What you have here is a set of dedicated plugins with custom UI, and some prefer it this way.

    Indeed - not that I’m mad about these UIs - the white dots on the attenuators to show knob position are too small, the knobs in general are too shiny and metallic looking. I find it distracting. Still, great apps, nothing’s perfect I guess 🤷‍♂️

  • @rs2000 said:

    I don't think so, after building some of them with Drambo.
    What you have here is a set of dedicated plugins with custom UI, and some prefer it this way.

    Super interesting ! I’m curious.
    Would you show us some examples of what t you achieved?

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