Texas 25th May 2022

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:
@NeuM: as discussed earlier in this thread and elsewhere, the Second Amendment has nothing to do with a personal right to gun ownership. It was entirely about states being able to maintain their own armed militias (which at the time were primarily in slave-owning states where their role was focused on preventing slave rebellions).

If you think the U.S. has nothing to learn from elsewhere, you are simply incurious. Our gun deaths have skyrocketed as guns have become easier to purchase.

The majority of Americans want to implement regulations to reduce our gun death epidemic.

We can learn things from places that aren’t identical to the U.S. by using our brains.

p.s. You may disagree with a Steve Kerry’s views on guns. That does not make him an idiot.

1. Supreme Court rulings clearly differ with your personal opinions on personal gun ownership. And they have repeatedly ruled in favor of it.

2. Constitutionally protected rights are for individuals. Not mobs, not the majority, not organizations, not government.

3. Always open to “learning”. Learning is great.

4. Steve Kerr (I assume you accidentally misspelled his name) previously called for police to be removed from schools. Dumb. Then he demands “gun control”, which is unconstitutional. Also very dumb. He’s an idiot.

In any event, and out of respect to the owner here, Michael, I think the facts have been made here in opposition to repeated falsehoods. Enough has been said for now.

LinearLineman

Yes, I insult your viewpoint @NeuM because you insult us all by deflecting from horror and rationalizing it. And also because you use your intelligence without skin in the game or accountability.
I suggest we both bow out so the thread might continue with better purpose. We have both had our say.

NeuM

@LinearLineman said:
Yes, I insult your viewpoint @NeuM because you insult us all by deflecting from horror and rationalizing it. And also because you use your intelligence without skin in the game or accountability.
I suggest we both bow out so the thread might continue with better purpose. We have both had our say.

I don’t insult your intelligence because I know you are not some random idiot and I appreciate it when you show restraint and do not personally attack and insult me. And I really meant every word I wrote about you and your wife’s serious health issues in the other thread. Your post moved me to post after a long period of not interacting with you here.

I agree we have both adequately voiced our opinions on the matter of what happened and what should happen regarding school safety.

ervin

On point.

Gravitas

@ervin said:
On point.

Agreed.

On point.

CRAKROX

@NeuM said:

@ervin said:

@CRAKROX said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@lasselu said:

@espiegel123 said:

@lasselu said:
I happen to think that the gun laws in the US are far to liberal but...
Here in Sweden we have very strict gun laws. That has in no way stopped criminals from having guns and shooting people with them. Just saying...

The per capita deaths from guns in Sweden is a tiny fraction of the U.S.

True, but far too many still die from gun violence...not sure if this is a numbers game...

I am all for making things safer, so I am ok with reducing gun violence and other types of violence towards that goal.

For the record, things are already pretty safe in the US, despite over-reported occasional acts of terrible violence.

We will have to disagree there. I'd like my kid to be as safe from gun violence at school as the UK is at least.

But they aren’t safe from “knife violence” or from a lunatic driving a truck into a crowd of people, right?

Are knives generally less lethal or more lethal than guns like the AR 15?

Trucks are not made to kill like guns are, but even in NY the total deaths was 8. much less than Uvalde. And I imagine it's a lot harder to ram a truck into a school and drive it around the hallways.

There are many instances in the UK of (mostly religious radicals) driving trucks into crowds.

This is nonsense, since 2006 there have been 4.

3 by Islamic Terrorists and 1 by a Right wing Terrorist.

It’s far from the number you’re inferring by the use of the term “many”.

Oh and a quick comparison with the US shows they had 5 in the same time period…

Okay, this specific diversion will probably not be repeated.

“ United Kingdom

Vehicles were been used to plow into pedestrians in the United Kingdom twice last year, including a June 2017 attack on London Bridge that killed eight people and a March 2017 attack on Westminster Bridge where four pedestrians and one police officer were killed. Suspects in both attacks were shot dead by police and have been investigated for ties to terrorist organizations.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/23/list-fatal-vehicle-attacks/544603002/

Time to ban all cars. And let’s not forget knives, clubs, fists…

The difference is that the other items you mention all have purposes other than maiming and killing which guns do not.

CRAKROX

@NeuM said:

@ervin said:

@CRAKROX said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@lasselu said:

@espiegel123 said:

@lasselu said:
I happen to think that the gun laws in the US are far to liberal but...
Here in Sweden we have very strict gun laws. That has in no way stopped criminals from having guns and shooting people with them. Just saying...

The per capita deaths from guns in Sweden is a tiny fraction of the U.S.

True, but far too many still die from gun violence...not sure if this is a numbers game...

I am all for making things safer, so I am ok with reducing gun violence and other types of violence towards that goal.

For the record, things are already pretty safe in the US, despite over-reported occasional acts of terrible violence.

We will have to disagree there. I'd like my kid to be as safe from gun violence at school as the UK is at least.

But they aren’t safe from “knife violence” or from a lunatic driving a truck into a crowd of people, right?

Are knives generally less lethal or more lethal than guns like the AR 15?

Trucks are not made to kill like guns are, but even in NY the total deaths was 8. much less than Uvalde. And I imagine it's a lot harder to ram a truck into a school and drive it around the hallways.

There are many instances in the UK of (mostly religious radicals) driving trucks into crowds.

This is nonsense, since 2006 there have been 4.

3 by Islamic Terrorists and 1 by a Right wing Terrorist.

It’s far from the number you’re inferring by the use of the term “many”.

Oh and a quick comparison with the US shows they had 5 in the same time period…

Okay, this specific diversion will probably not be repeated.

“ United Kingdom

Vehicles were been used to plow into pedestrians in the United Kingdom twice last year, including a June 2017 attack on London Bridge that killed eight people and a March 2017 attack on Westminster Bridge where four pedestrians and one police officer were killed. Suspects in both attacks were shot dead by police and have been investigated for ties to terrorist organizations.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/23/list-fatal-vehicle-attacks/544603002/

Time to ban all cars. And let’s not forget knives, clubs, fists…

Yes those were amongst the ones I counted I notice no admission that your claim was greatly exaggerated…

CRAKROX

@NeuM said:

@AudioGus said:
So sounds like a) armed guards vs b) remove all guns from the US. (I have eliminated options requiring time machines and crystal balls.)

I’ll keep saying this. The armed guard who was supposed to be there wasn’t. And a series of lies were told to the press to defend him. They need to get this sorted out and charge him and/or the school administrators if necessary.

Amazing that your privy to such information prior to the conclusion of a police investigation etc.

Michael_R_Grant

@NeuM said:

@Grandbear said:
Arming teachers? The fucking nerve, unbelievable. I guess this just makes clear how the logic behind this mess works.

Right. Why should teachers have the ability to save their own lives. The nerve!

Mate, I’ll say what everyone here is thinking: you are genuinely a fucking idiot.

SirMcp

I have a solution. We ban assault rifles. We collect them and then we ship them to the Ukraine so that they can be used against the Russian Army. It’s a win for everyone.

CRAKROX

It’s weird how many of these gun nuts clasp the constitution to their chest as though it was carved in stone and had never been amended in the past over other issues…

AudioGus

@SirMcp said:
I have a solution. We ban assault rifles. We collect them and then we ship them to the Ukraine so that they can be used against the Russian Army. It’s a win for everyone.

Dayum, dontate your gun to Ukraine and get a tax credit / free spliff. I like.

SirMcp

I know. I should be the potus.

AudioGus

@CRAKROX said:
It’s weird how many of these gun nuts clasp the constitution to their chest as though it was carved in stone and had never been amended in the past over other issues…

Wait a minute... is that what an amendment is? Sunnuvagun.

JeffChasteen

@NeuM said:

@AlexY said:

@lasselu said:

@espiegel123 said:

@lasselu said:
I happen to think that the gun laws in the US are far to liberal but...
Here in Sweden we have very strict gun laws. That has in no way stopped criminals from having guns and shooting people with them. Just saying...

The per capita deaths from guns in Sweden is a tiny fraction of the U.S.

True, but far too many still die from gun violence...not sure if this is a numbers game...

I am all for making things safer, so I am ok with reducing gun violence and other types of violence towards that goal.

For the record, things are already pretty safe in the US, despite over-reported occasional acts of terrible violence.

You are correct. Violent crime in the US has been on a decades-long decline. 24/7 Infotainment, Inc.
gives the impression that that is not the case.

JeffChasteen

@Gravitas said:
I sat in the park this afternoon.

The Sun was shining.

There were no bombs in the sky.

There were no sounds of gun fire.

There were smiles on peoples faces including mine.

There isn't much point pointing the finger at
other countries when clearly the problem is within your shores.

I'm a lifelong teacher.

There will be no day I ever walk into a classroom with a gun in my hand.

The only thing your children will be learning is fear.

I pity you if you believe that arming teachers is the answer.

This thread was supposed to be about remembering
and publicly grieving for 21 people who died not
about your right to bear arms which perpetuates violence.

The caveman grew up a long time ago.

With you on this. I never became a teacher so that I could yell at or run power trips on children.
And I certainly didn’t become a teacher so that I could go to work armed.

JeffChasteen

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

The purpose of those “well-regulated militias” was to put down slave rebellions, not to keep a potentially tyrannical government in check.

JeffChasteen

@richardyot said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

Wonder what "militia" means...

I wonder what the Supreme Court’s ruling on that is… oh, they’ve already ruled in favor of individual arms ownership. No militia involvement required.

So much for the constitution then, since people just pick and choose which bits of it they like 🤷‍♀️

Richard, I’m a Third Amendment fanatic; your damn countrymen will never be quartered in my house! Over my dead welcome mat! You will have to pry that pillow mint from my cold dead hand!!!

NeuM

@JeffChasteen said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

The purpose of those “well-regulated militias” was to put down slave rebellions, not to keep a potentially tyrannical government in check.

Incorrect. And it was Alexander Hamilton who proves this assertion is incorrect.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

In addition, beyond all that the Supreme Court has disproven this alleged permanent linkage to a militia.

JeffChasteen

@ervin said:
On point.

Beautifully on point.

JeffChasteen

@NeuM said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

The purpose of those “well-regulated militias” was to put down slave rebellions, not to keep a potentially tyrannical government in check.

Incorrect. And it was Alexander Hamilton who proves this assertion is incorrect.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

In addition, beyond all that the Supreme Court has disproven this alleged permanent linkage to a militia.

How did Hamilton disprove that uncomfortable truth?
By dying from gun violence?

espiegel123

@NeuM said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

The purpose of those “well-regulated militias” was to put down slave rebellions, not to keep a potentially tyrannical government in check.

Incorrect. And it was Alexander Hamilton who proves this assertion is incorrect.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

In addition, beyond all that the Supreme Court has disproven this alleged permanent linkage to a militia.

NeuM: Go read the actual letters between James Madison and Patrick Henry and George Mason. It is explicit.

You just repeat talking points that you have come across somewhere.

The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with a personal right to own guns…let alone freedom from any regulation on firearms. It had nothing to do with defending against tyranny. That’s right wing folklore.

Even Scalia admitted the constitution gives no guarantee to be able to own whatever weapon you want.

The death toll from guns in the U.S. is related to the number of guns. You may be ignorant that the push to arm everyone and increase the number of guns is subsidized by a highly profitable industry (gun manufacturers) who know that the number of deaths will rise as does the number of guns. They use existing gun violence to sell weapons. It is a sickening deadly cycle.

You decry tyranny and yet you want us to live in a society where everyone needs to be armed to the teeth…where schools are armed enclaves.

It sounds like a zombie apocalypse this ideal world of yours.

You simply can’t continue increasing the number of weapons in people’s hands without increasing the number of deaths of innocent people.

Simon

The intersting thing about the "gun debate" is that there are no countries in the world who are keen to be like the USA as far as guns go. Nobody wants the problem that the USA has with guns.

Lots of countries would like the political freedom the USA (and other Western countries) has, or the USA's technical ability, or the USA's economic strength, or their legal system and other nice things. But nobody wants the headache that a massive oversupply of guns brings.

The USA has "painted itself into a corner" with guns. The "most powerful nation on Earth" has trapped itself.

maxwellhouser

I feel the argument to arm and fortify schools is mainly a device to deflect the conversation from the actual issue. I’m sure I’m only repeating what’s been said this large thread.

Mass shootings are not limited to schools.

The relentless pro-gun, ‘any-regulation-is-bad’ propaganda has done a number on many brains in this country. Combine it with the ‘reject-anything-that-goes-against-your-beliefs’ attitude perfected by Rush Limbaugh and adopted by all the right wing media/politicians and here we are.

NeuM

@Simon said:
The intersting thing about the "gun debate" is that there are no countries in the world who are keen to be like the USA as far as guns go. Nobody wants the problem that the USA has with guns.

Lots of countries would like the political freedom the USA (and other Western countries) has, or the USA's technical ability, or the USA's economic strength, or their legal system and other nice things. But nobody wants the headache that a massive oversupply of guns brings.

The USA has "painted itself into a corner" with guns. The "most powerful nation on Earth" has trapped itself.

Irrelevant.

Simon

@AudioGus said:
I can't help but see the country as a slow motion Titanic sinking into the ocean. People scrambling up the tilting deck thinking 'I'm latched onto this railing for the next twenty years or so... I'm fine, I'm fine...'

Great post.

Empires seem to come and go. The British Empire went pretty quickly.

Could be America's turn.

And, yes NeuM, I know America is not an actual "Empire" in the traditional sense

NeuM

@maxwellhouser said:
I feel the argument to arm and fortify schools is mainly a device to deflect the conversation from the actual issue. I’m sure I’m only repeating what’s been said this large thread.

Mass shootings are not limited to schools.

The relentless pro-gun, ‘any-regulation-is-bad’ propaganda has done a number on many brains in this country. Combine it with the ‘reject-anything-that-goes-against-your-beliefs’ attitude perfected by Rush Limbaugh and adopted by all the right wing media/politicians and here we are.

The Second Amendment protects the individual from the predations of government as well as the will of mobs.

NeuM

@espiegel123 said:

@NeuM said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@NeuM said:

@richardyot said:
Was the murderer in a well-regulated militia?

How many people here really don’t understand what “well-regulated” means in the historical context of the Constitution, which is a legal document? I see at least one.

https://constitution.org/1-Constitution/cons/wellregu.htm

The purpose of those “well-regulated militias” was to put down slave rebellions, not to keep a potentially tyrannical government in check.

Incorrect. And it was Alexander Hamilton who proves this assertion is incorrect.

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

In addition, beyond all that the Supreme Court has disproven this alleged permanent linkage to a militia.

NeuM: Go read the actual letters between James Madison and Patrick Henry and George Mason. It is explicit.

You just repeat talking points that you have come across somewhere.

The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with a personal right to own guns…let alone freedom from any regulation on firearms. It had nothing to do with defending against tyranny. That’s right wing folklore.

Even Scalia admitted the constitution gives no guarantee to be able to own whatever weapon you want.

The death toll from guns in the U.S. is related to the number of guns. You may be ignorant that the push to arm everyone and increase the number of guns is subsidized by a highly profitable industry (gun manufacturers) who know that the number of deaths will rise as does the number of guns. They use existing gun violence to sell weapons. It is a sickening deadly cycle.

You decry tyranny and yet you want us to live in a society where everyone needs to be armed to the teeth…where schools are armed enclaves.

It sounds like a zombie apocalypse this ideal world of yours.

You simply can’t continue increasing the number of weapons in people’s hands without increasing the number of deaths of innocent people.

The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly in favor of the right of the individual to keep and bear arms. Sorry if this contradicts your assertions, but those are the facts.

Simon

@NeuM said:

@Simon said:
The intersting thing about the "gun debate" is that there are no countries in the world who are keen to be like the USA as far as guns go. Nobody wants the problem that the USA has with guns.

Lots of countries would like the political freedom the USA (and other Western countries) has, or the USA's technical ability, or the USA's economic strength, or their legal system and other nice things. But nobody wants the headache that a massive oversupply of guns brings.

The USA has "painted itself into a corner" with guns. The "most powerful nation on Earth" has trapped itself.

Irrelevant.

... but true.

maxwellhouser

I won’t quote the troll NeuM but he proved my point. Melted brain.